Toz 35 Modifications

[paulo]

I looked at your images on page 2, and subsequent additions on page 3, but there is a lot of steps that remain obscure to me.

How do you secure the carbon lever to the old lever that has been cut, I see the two screws, but I haven't seen it from the other side, or apart?

The position of the lever will imply a force upward to open the block, how does that impact the attachment to the grip?

How does the block lock, so it doesn't open by accident, or stays in a free movement action, I saw the images on page 3 of the additions you made on the back and bottom, but they didn't seem to my brains eye to clarify my doubts about safety?

How do you secure the gun to the grip?

Also taking a page from the world record holder gun, Vostok MC 55, I am wondering if anybody has reared back sights, and/or reared the grip on a TOZ?
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/default.htm look under vostok MC 55
http://www.potfire.com.au/compend/spmc55.htm

[jsealc21]

I looked at your images on page 2, and subsequent additions on page 3, but there is a lot of steps that remain obscure to me.

How do you secure the carbon lever to the old lever that has been cut, I see the two screws, but I haven't seen it from the other side, or apart?....Hi Paulo,the screws are threaded into the upper tang of the lever,with a small aluminium spacer block for clearance,which is shown in the pictures

The position of the lever will imply a force upward to open the block, how does that impact the attachment to the grip? .....the grip needs to be relieved where the new lever operates

How does the block lock, so it doesn't open by accident, or stays in a free movement action, I saw the images on page 3 of the additions you made on the back and bottom, but they didn't seem to my brains eye to clarify my doubts about safety?.......the lever locks by it's normal interference fit into the recess in the breechblock,and a detent where the detent ball rolls against the lever stub.the angles of force make it impossible to open the action when the lever is fully engaged in the recesses

How do you secure the gun to the grip?.....I use the two upper grip screws where they screw into the lower rear corner of the action...I also glass bedded those contact areas around the action.there is no movement

Also taking a page from the world record holder gun, Vostok MC 55, I am wondering if anybody has elevated rear sights, and reared the grip on a TOZ?...I haven't done this myself,but would be a simple project.

http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/default.htm look under vostok MC 55
http://www.potfire.com.au/compend/spmc55.htm

[dam8]

If a 35 has to be cut to remove the front sight to add a straight one or a comp, with the idea of lightening, how much length can be cut ? Is there a barrel length ideal for free?

[zoned]

If a 35 has to be cut to remove the front sight to add a straight one or a comp, with the idea of lightening, how much length can be cut ? Is there a barrel length ideal for free?

The 35M front sight comes off by loosening a setscrew.

The TOZ35 barrel weighs a bit over 1 ounce per inch. This "M" is three inches shorter, balances nicely and holds steady. Next stop, the milling machine to reduce unnecessary metal bulk.

Info describing how the barrel was re-crowned is in the Files at the Free_Pistol forum http://tinyurl.com/yhort3g

[Freepistol]

I'd be more concerned with losing sighting accuracy with the shortened sight radius than losing accuracy from a shortened barrel.

[Tycho]

Sight radius is only good if you're able to hold that thing still... That TOZ sure looks like fun :-)

[paulo]

This subject can be a "dead horse" to some here, but it intrigues me a lot, because it is something I don't fully understand.

Is there any science that establishes optimums for barrel length, in single hand hold, 50 meters shooting, in relation to natural harm length and sight radius size?
Or any correlation with barrel size that is of significance to keep shooting a ten?

In air pistol not all high end guns are close to be the same length, and some shooters prefer short others long barrels.
++++++++sight++barrel++weight
LP10E 319-365mm 227mm 1060gr
LP 2 311-335mm 905gr
LP2 Compact 268-298mm 780-710gr
Pardini K2 373mm 235mm 990gr
Pardini K10 345-375mm 230mm 990gr
Pardini K10 jr 310-340mm 205mm 900gr
MG-1E 305-330-365mm 240mm 980-1100gr
Walther LP300XT 5D 350-366mm 236mm 1018gr
Walther LP300XT 3D 350-366mm 236mm 1018gr
Morini 162E 310-350mm 240mm 1020gr
Morini 162E short 310-350mm 200mm 970gr
FWB P44 360-395mm 233mm 940gr
FWB P44 short 310-345mm 183mm 870gr
FWB P58 365-380mm 224mm 1040gr

The argument is, in a short barrel pistol a shooter will introduce less holding disturbance to the pellet, because the pellet travels less time, inside the barrel and is thus less affected by grip movement.
In an air pistol, pellet speed can be changed, but that is not a variable I am considering here, since most 22lr ammo is shooting at very similar speeds, 1050fps
Thanks to all for any reading pointers and explanations.

[Philadelphia]

. . . The argument is, in a short barrel pistol a shooter will introduce less holding disturbance to the pellet, because the pellet travels less time, inside the barrel and is thus less affected by grip movement.
In an air pistol, pellet speed can be changed, but that is not a variable I am considering here, since most 22lr ammo is shooting at very similar speeds, 1050fps
Thanks to all for any reading pointers and explanations.

I don't think so -- I would look at it more that you will always hit within your ability to hold (assuming proper sight alignment and trigger control, which have nothing to do with barrel length). Sure the barrel moves while the projectile is in it (for milliseconds at most) but it necessarily moves within your ability to hold.

Barrel length and the balance of a pistol preferences have got to be somewhat individual to the shooter but I'd point out that a longer pendulum swings more slowly. A rapid fire pistol might be better with a shorter, lighter barrel for fast transition while a free pistol might be better with as much weight and length as the individual shooter can possibly control. Make sense?

[paulo]

Is there a limitation to barrel size in free pistol?
and overall gun length?
What is the ISSF box size for a free pistol?

[Freepistol]

Is there a limitation to barrel size in free pistol?
and overall gun length?
What is the ISSF box size for a free pistol?

There is no box for the Free Pistol, hence the name.

[zoned]

Theory and statistics may be valid, but it is easier [for me] to hold a steady sight picture with the short TOZ. Longer barrels tend to make the front sight dance and I have to add a lot of weight to calm them. Shorter barrels don't wobble [for me] and I can hold a light weight pistol like a stone statue, so weight reduction is the goal with this TOZ. YMMV

[paulo]

Is there a limitation to barrel size in free pistol?
and overall gun length?
What is the ISSF box size for a free pistol?

There is no box for the Free Pistol, hence the name.

Thank you, and to ad to that, from Pilkguns:
"The rules for Free Pistol are quite simple. As the term would suggest, there are few restrictions on the pistol used. It has to be a .22 caliber rimfire pistol with open sights. The grip may not contact the hand beyond the wrist. There are no restrictions on barrel length, sight radius or trigger weight, although the pistol must be set off by the trigger finger of the shooting hand. A repeater may be used but one round must be loaded at a time. Match duration is a limit of two hours for 60 shots, with unlimited sighters (all of which must be fired before the first competition shot). Targets are the same as used for 25m Standard Pistol and the Precision section of Sport Pistol and Center Fire except shot at twice the distance. And as with all ISSF events we stand on our hind legs and shoot like real men (and women) – one handed."

[peterz]

And as with all ISSF events we stand on our hind legs and shoot like real men (and women) – one handed."

Here, here!

[POPeye as guest]

And all serious shooters must enjoy the challenge of shooting 10's at 50m, standing, single handed. Like striking a hole in one with golf.

The 50m event offers the most options for pimping one's free pistol, and there is a certain sense of satisfaction with grouping shots in the 9 and 10 rings at 50m using a wrap around grip and light trigger with rock solid square iron sights. Better than air pistol-anyday.

Popeye

[Chris]

Length of barrel: I know in small bore there have been tests done where they took a normal length barrel. Normal being what was in a 1913 at the time. The process involved shooting test groups and removing an inch from the barrel to find lengths that produced good groups. They found one and came up with the 2013 being shorter. There was a node where the end of the barrel ended up and so there was reduced vibrations at the end when the bullet made it's exit.

For FP I am not sure this has been done to my knowledge but I would want to try this before I change the length of my Toz barrel. What would be interesting to know is is there an impact to the group size if you take 3" of the barrel. You have to balance this with what you loose in sight radius. On the 2013 they have a tube extension so you keep the long sight radius.

If your goal is to reduce weight and move the center of gravity back then I would add 3" back as a comp that had a lighter weight than what I removed. If all you want to do is reduce the weight of your gun then I would shoot more and other things to increase the strength in your arm to hold the pistol up. In the short term you may benefit from a shorter barrel but you may grow out of it. I do think it would be a good way to start a junior.

I think the Toz had an advantage for some with a shorter sight radius so it is more forgiving when your sights are off a little.

If you can hold the sights in relationship to each other well then you may benefit from a longer sight radius.

[paulo]

A tempting opportunity to study barrel length vs accuracy.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =161907982

[zoned]

Length of barrel:...What would be interesting to know is is there an impact to the group size if you take 3" of the barrel..

Within the ability of mortals shooting offhand, any positive or negative change in the pistol's capacity to group is a non-issue. I suppose there might possibly be a dozen shooters on the planet who are good enough to perceive a difference in the pistol's accuracy. If it was a rail gun, ballistic science would matter.

... If all you want to do is reduce the weight of your gun then I would shoot more and other things to increase the strength in your arm to hold the pistol up...

IIRC, I began shooting a TOZ in 1983. Before that, mostly air pistol. Tweaking a design we have all assumed to be a commandment is challenging. There is no box for FP which allows the freedom to think outside of such a restriction. For sure, I'm just one of many who have successfully cut a barrel. One of the guys in my club chopped a TOZ twenty years ago.

[Chris]

Zoned,

I agree people may not notice the difference in performance if the accuracy of a TOZ were changed due to modifying the barrel. I had the thought in my head when writing that post but also had several other things going on when I was writing that and so I was distracted. I think you have to balance what you are doing with you end goal. Is it to improve your performance or have fun and you really do not care.

For me personally I would not want to make any changes that would degrade the performance. If you take a TOZ that could hold an inch and now it only holds 2 inches and your hold does not change you are going to potentially shoot a lower score. The person in question has to accept this.

[b]

A person can make any mods to their own pistol they want to, obviously. However, I have seen almost none of the shooters at the world class level that have made any of these mods. If you are hoping it will make you shoot better, it may until the newness wears off and then you will be back where you started. The TOZ is very capable the way it is and has been for many years. It is just depends on what you are really trying to acheive...a performance improvement or a new look. What ever you are after, go for it.

[zoned]

> For me personally I would not want to make any changes that
> would degrade the performance. If you take a TOZ that could hold
> an inch and now it only holds 2 inches and your hold does not
> change you are going to potentially shoot a lower score.

======================

> I have seen almost none of the shooters at the world class level
> that have made any of these mods. If you are hoping it will make
> you shoot better, it may until the newness wears off and then you
> will be back where you started. The TOZ is very capable the way it is
> and has been for many years. It is just depends on what you are
> really trying to acheive...a performance improvement or a new look.


Always the timid fear mongers. If I worried what the "world class level" shooters did, I'd never go to the range nor have an independent thought. The view never changes when you're following.