How many of you begin to apply some trigger pressure while the gun is in the "down" position? Either taking up the slack or even the first stage?
Under the advice of a really good shooter, I've been doing this for the past year or more, but I confess I'm getting really frustrated at putting the occasional shot into the floor!
It happens most often if I'm mentally rehearsing the shot process -- pre-visualizing. I'll be thinking about a smooth pressure on the trigger and imagining the sight picture when "bang!" my subconscious does what I'm thinking about. If you think a flyer is bad, this is worse! Ten points gone and a mental shake-up.
I also get the odd one where the gun goes off just as the sights approach the bull but way before I'm ready. Not so surprisingly, a good number of these (although I would have thought they were way low) are tens. I say not surprisingly because the subconscious is pretty amazing.
I think I'm either going to have to give up on this or else just rest my index finger on the trigger but not apply any pressure to speak of at all.
Starting trigger pressure while on the 45 degree down?
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You've probably then experienced the shot that breaks just as you enter the white at 12 o'clock---man that hurts. One big hole glaring at you from 50' at 12 o'clock----e-e-e-u-u-u-u-u-w-w-w! It has it's probable good points, to me however it's all bad IMHO. Keep the trigger moving once you've settled into your "wobble zone" until you either get a break or abort the shot. "Cheeken finger" is your worst enemyhere, when your mind says SHOOT and your hand is still saying NO. It's a mind game and you will have to endure and suffer like the rest of us. "Doc"
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
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- Location: Ruislip, UK
It very much depends on the pistol and the trigger set up.
When I was competing, using a FAS 602 for Standard Pistol and a 603 for Centre Fire (1360g trigger days) I would always take up the first stage at the ready position. That would only leave about 250g on the 602 and 400g on the 603.
Even though I never put one into the dirt, and I did a LOT of shooting, I did chicken out at one range where they had built a low brick wall just in front of the firing point. That would not have been the place to get my first accidental release, the ricochet would have been "interesting".
When I was competing, using a FAS 602 for Standard Pistol and a 603 for Centre Fire (1360g trigger days) I would always take up the first stage at the ready position. That would only leave about 250g on the 602 and 400g on the 603.
Even though I never put one into the dirt, and I did a LOT of shooting, I did chicken out at one range where they had built a low brick wall just in front of the firing point. That would not have been the place to get my first accidental release, the ricochet would have been "interesting".
I`ve been doing this (first stage) since i was a newbie back in 2003. Now as a coach i learn my students the same thing.
I have had several shots in the bench or on the way towards the targets, but seldom during competiion.
This apply to all my guns, from AP to my 9mm.
I truly believe that you should continue training this way, but i respect those who thinks otherwise.
The odd shot that is fired as the sights approach the bull will normally go higher than your sights is telling you, this is normal when the arm is moving upwards.
I have had several shots in the bench or on the way towards the targets, but seldom during competiion.
This apply to all my guns, from AP to my 9mm.
I truly believe that you should continue training this way, but i respect those who thinks otherwise.
The odd shot that is fired as the sights approach the bull will normally go higher than your sights is telling you, this is normal when the arm is moving upwards.
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Philadelphia
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Yes, I have had my share of agricultural shoots (plowing up the dirt between the bench and target). And going from free pistol to AP to standard pistol to 3 1/2 pound 45 caliber is interesting.
This is the best article I have seen on the lift phase of Standard, Rapid fire and Sport pistol events:
http://www.usashooting.com/mag/JanFebSmall.pdf (article by By Keith Sanderson, 2008 Olympian) on page 17.
I know that if you go from not touching the trigger at all to taking up slack or the first stage will change the muscles in your hand. Hence, you must start before you do the final sight alignment.
This is the best article I have seen on the lift phase of Standard, Rapid fire and Sport pistol events:
http://www.usashooting.com/mag/JanFebSmall.pdf (article by By Keith Sanderson, 2008 Olympian) on page 17.
I know that if you go from not touching the trigger at all to taking up slack or the first stage will change the muscles in your hand. Hence, you must start before you do the final sight alignment.
Very good article. The problem occurs for me when I'm visualizing the shot process, so I think what I have to do (rather than abandon the technique) is not to apply any pressure on the trigger during visualization. It's the sympathetic muscle movement while I'm imagining continuous smoothly increasing pressure on the trigger that causes the gun to go off.
This is going to be hardest during centre fire rapid fire (the 3 second facing/ 7 second edged) series. I really shouldn't be pre-visualizing during a series, but it does happen, especially after a poor shot when I try to regroup on the fundamentals in my mind.
Anyway, I'm going to work on not applying pressure until I am done my visualization and not to do it during visualization!
This is going to be hardest during centre fire rapid fire (the 3 second facing/ 7 second edged) series. I really shouldn't be pre-visualizing during a series, but it does happen, especially after a poor shot when I try to regroup on the fundamentals in my mind.
Anyway, I'm going to work on not applying pressure until I am done my visualization and not to do it during visualization!
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
Ed Stevens, Congratulations on perfecting the visualization technique. I am sure that the simple protections you are planning will sufice to prevent the accidental discharges. Good Shooting Bill Horton
If your visualizing during the away stage in your rapid fire stage it means that you are not focusing on what you're supposed to be doing.
I look at it this way. There is 7 seconds while the card is away. 2 seconds is going to be dedicated to follow through, another 1.5 to return to ready position. To start visualizing here means you can't finish the process before the card faces again and you will be flustered in raising the pistol. You panic and bang... you shot a snake.
Rather than breaking the series up into 5x 3 sec shots and 5x7 second rests try 5x10 second shots. By this I mean your shot process takes about 10 seconds to complete and you repeat one after the other until you finish the series.
With regard to the trigger press. I do it a bit differently that most. I use a 1 stage trigger and press all the way through the lift phase. As a rapid fire shooter I find this the easiest.
However using the method whereby you develop early pressure and the lift and fire you need to take up the first stage and then re-commence your pressure as you pick up the sights and move into the area. Unfortunately there is no other cure for this than a lot of practice.
Good luck
I look at it this way. There is 7 seconds while the card is away. 2 seconds is going to be dedicated to follow through, another 1.5 to return to ready position. To start visualizing here means you can't finish the process before the card faces again and you will be flustered in raising the pistol. You panic and bang... you shot a snake.
Rather than breaking the series up into 5x 3 sec shots and 5x7 second rests try 5x10 second shots. By this I mean your shot process takes about 10 seconds to complete and you repeat one after the other until you finish the series.
With regard to the trigger press. I do it a bit differently that most. I use a 1 stage trigger and press all the way through the lift phase. As a rapid fire shooter I find this the easiest.
However using the method whereby you develop early pressure and the lift and fire you need to take up the first stage and then re-commence your pressure as you pick up the sights and move into the area. Unfortunately there is no other cure for this than a lot of practice.
Good luck
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john bickar
- Posts: 618
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For 25m pistol events, I'm an advocate of putting positive pressure on the trigger in the ready position.
Now that RFP has moved to a 1000g trigger, which lends itself to two-stage triggers, it's much easier to "stage" the trigger in the ready position. Typically this means taking up the first stage.
If you're putting live rounds into the floor with a 1000g two-stage trigger, I would humbly suggest that you spend a lot of time dry firing with your standard/rapid fire/center fire pistol. You can dry fire with the gun in your lap to develop an "educated" trigger finger.
If you're putting live rounds into the floor on a range where I am, I'd prefer that you not do that, and I'll advise you as such. If you do it more than once, my politeness might dissipate. Quickly.
Regarding breaking shots early, in the white, on your "glide" into the black - welcome to the wonderful world of training 25m international pistol :)
You have to break some eggs if you want to make an omelet.
Also, I prefer the phrase "mental rehearsal" as opposed to "visualization", particularly in reference to the tactile aspects of shooting, for this very
BOOM!
reason.
Now that RFP has moved to a 1000g trigger, which lends itself to two-stage triggers, it's much easier to "stage" the trigger in the ready position. Typically this means taking up the first stage.
If you're putting live rounds into the floor with a 1000g two-stage trigger, I would humbly suggest that you spend a lot of time dry firing with your standard/rapid fire/center fire pistol. You can dry fire with the gun in your lap to develop an "educated" trigger finger.
If you're putting live rounds into the floor on a range where I am, I'd prefer that you not do that, and I'll advise you as such. If you do it more than once, my politeness might dissipate. Quickly.
Regarding breaking shots early, in the white, on your "glide" into the black - welcome to the wonderful world of training 25m international pistol :)
You have to break some eggs if you want to make an omelet.
Also, I prefer the phrase "mental rehearsal" as opposed to "visualization", particularly in reference to the tactile aspects of shooting, for this very
BOOM!
reason.
Yes,that would be worth trying. What is, in that case, your prefered first/second setup?600/400 or 800/200?David M wrote:For rapid fire and duel shots (Rapid, Std, Sport and C/F). Add a little travel to the second stage to add a little feel and squeeze.
Thank you Pete S for the wery useful link.
Kent
just wondering why you are doing your shot prep, then commit to the comencement of what you should of prepped for, to then go back to shot prep?
once you have prepped for the shot/s, then commit to it, the outcome is largely already decided.
If you feel the need to revisualise, you havent got a good prep in the first place.
for air/free etc, the prep may include visualisation on the target during hold, in which case if it goes bang accidently, the outcome will be inside your hold pattern as you had yet had time to disturb it.
in your case it is into the ground!
once you have prepped for the shot/s, then commit to it, the outcome is largely already decided.
If you feel the need to revisualise, you havent got a good prep in the first place.
for air/free etc, the prep may include visualisation on the target during hold, in which case if it goes bang accidently, the outcome will be inside your hold pattern as you had yet had time to disturb it.
in your case it is into the ground!