Sighter shots in standing and kneeling
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
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Ed Larson
Sighter shots in standing and kneeling
We have two opinions at our 4-H program. One is that once you sight and shoot the prone, you do not shot any sighters in the standing or kneeling. The other is that you shoot sighters either to adjust the gun or look for correct position. Any thoughts? Please give reasons.
Sighter shots in standing and kneeling
Well I'm not a pro, however we just finished a postal "US Army Postal" & they allowed sighters in all 3 positions. In my mind, the different positions may cause slightly different sight adjustments most likely due to shooter torques on the gun, pressure points, flex in the stock etc. I (we) have never really put the theory to test. But the different positions do result in different grip, trigger pull etc. But again I'm not a pro...
Ed
Ed
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Tony D
sighters
The answer depends on the shooter's ability.
In general, you should re-sight in for each position. In the prone and kneeling position, the sling places a torque on the stock that can change the point of impact depending on the force vector on the hand stop/sling swivel. In the standing position, this torque isn't there versus the prone position and the aimpoint will vary to the standing position. On a lighweight rifle like that Daisy 853, the impact can change 2-3 rings from prone to standing.
Head position, shoulder pressure, cant, and other factors also can change when moving through the three positions and this affects the sight picture and recoil (less of a concern on an air rifle) and, thereby, the aimpoint of the rifle.
Until the shooter has become accomplished enough in the standing position to make a five shot group that is the size of a quarter or less, sighting will be a frustrating exercise as they chase their instability error versus trying to correct any rifle sighting error. A beginning shooter is better off just leaving the sights alone and focus on shooting smaller groups. Once they can make a consistently sized group, the shooter can then try adjusting the sights to get their groups centered.
In general, you should re-sight in for each position. In the prone and kneeling position, the sling places a torque on the stock that can change the point of impact depending on the force vector on the hand stop/sling swivel. In the standing position, this torque isn't there versus the prone position and the aimpoint will vary to the standing position. On a lighweight rifle like that Daisy 853, the impact can change 2-3 rings from prone to standing.
Head position, shoulder pressure, cant, and other factors also can change when moving through the three positions and this affects the sight picture and recoil (less of a concern on an air rifle) and, thereby, the aimpoint of the rifle.
Until the shooter has become accomplished enough in the standing position to make a five shot group that is the size of a quarter or less, sighting will be a frustrating exercise as they chase their instability error versus trying to correct any rifle sighting error. A beginning shooter is better off just leaving the sights alone and focus on shooting smaller groups. Once they can make a consistently sized group, the shooter can then try adjusting the sights to get their groups centered.
First of all .... look at the rules that the 4-H nationals will go by (hopefully)
Sighters are allowed in all positions.
In sporter is is pretty near impossible to get a head on the stock the same way in all three positions ... even this slight difference in what the shooter "sees" will cause changes in the POI.
Why put your kids at a disadvantage by not allowing them (not teaching them) to fire sighters in all positions?
Now if all the programs do is to teach/instruct safe rifle handling, OK, maybe I can see the point .... but once you move into the competition phase it only makes sense to teach them so that they are at their best.
I agree, for the most part, with Tony D. I only have them shoot sighters when they are shooting groups (in any position) tighter than a quarter ... pretty much if they can hold it in the black. I say any position, since I do not necessarily start kids off in standing ... I'll start my smaller kids (8 to maybe 10 years old) in prone
For reason why a quarter ... see the USA Shooting 4-H Passport program. Look at the "Basic" pin requirements.
We use this program to good effect, especially with the younger shooters who are motivated by the pins they attach to their shooting bags
Sighters are allowed in all positions.
In sporter is is pretty near impossible to get a head on the stock the same way in all three positions ... even this slight difference in what the shooter "sees" will cause changes in the POI.
Why put your kids at a disadvantage by not allowing them (not teaching them) to fire sighters in all positions?
Now if all the programs do is to teach/instruct safe rifle handling, OK, maybe I can see the point .... but once you move into the competition phase it only makes sense to teach them so that they are at their best.
I agree, for the most part, with Tony D. I only have them shoot sighters when they are shooting groups (in any position) tighter than a quarter ... pretty much if they can hold it in the black. I say any position, since I do not necessarily start kids off in standing ... I'll start my smaller kids (8 to maybe 10 years old) in prone
For reason why a quarter ... see the USA Shooting 4-H Passport program. Look at the "Basic" pin requirements.
We use this program to good effect, especially with the younger shooters who are motivated by the pins they attach to their shooting bags
As discussed, sighters are useful in each position as your cheek will not always contact the stock the same in each position.
Just as important, I think, is the ability for the shooter to "settle in" to the position while firing a few sighters, and taking away the "first shot" problem some shooters have (as their first record shot is really their forth or fifth shot).
Just as important, I think, is the ability for the shooter to "settle in" to the position while firing a few sighters, and taking away the "first shot" problem some shooters have (as their first record shot is really their forth or fifth shot).
If you happen to live in a "freelancing" 4-H state, if you are a parent, and especially a project leader, you should explain to the PTB that is actually HURTING the kids when you don't follow the rules.
Here in NM (about 6 years ago) we did not shoot sighters in all positions, and did not even use slings. We're fortunate that we have good listeners in our state office and we now have a great program for all the shooting sports.
We were able to argue the case that we turn more kids off of the sport when they show up and are embarrassed at Nationals (or even State for that matter) when the kids don't know or don't follow the rules.
It can be humiliating for these kids and that should NEVER happen.
A few years ago a sporter air rifle team showed up at Nationals as they were expecting to shoot B-27 targets in the silhouette match. We felt terrible for the kids (and I was furious at the leaders) when these kids showed up for the practice day ... there is NO excuse for this.
Please ... a plea to the 4-H SS leaders .... find out what NGB rules are being used in your events, and train your kids to those rules .... and try (& try hard) and convince the PTB to follow as well.
Do I agree with all the rules ... heck no, but in my mind it borders on criminal to spend money to ship these kids off to a national comp totally unprepared. I know it's not always possible to convince the freelancers, but give it a good try ... for the kids.
Here in NM (about 6 years ago) we did not shoot sighters in all positions, and did not even use slings. We're fortunate that we have good listeners in our state office and we now have a great program for all the shooting sports.
We were able to argue the case that we turn more kids off of the sport when they show up and are embarrassed at Nationals (or even State for that matter) when the kids don't know or don't follow the rules.
It can be humiliating for these kids and that should NEVER happen.
A few years ago a sporter air rifle team showed up at Nationals as they were expecting to shoot B-27 targets in the silhouette match. We felt terrible for the kids (and I was furious at the leaders) when these kids showed up for the practice day ... there is NO excuse for this.
Please ... a plea to the 4-H SS leaders .... find out what NGB rules are being used in your events, and train your kids to those rules .... and try (& try hard) and convince the PTB to follow as well.
Do I agree with all the rules ... heck no, but in my mind it borders on criminal to spend money to ship these kids off to a national comp totally unprepared. I know it's not always possible to convince the freelancers, but give it a good try ... for the kids.
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Ed Larson
I agree with the shooting sighters, if nothing else it leads to getting into a correct position. We go by the 'Blue Book' as much as possible and have had some success at Nationals, we're from Montana. Just finished our shoulder match results can be seen at
http://www.co.lewis-clark.mt.us/index.php?id=76
in the upper right hand corner. It was a good day and a 275 for 3P won it.
Thanks for all the input. Keep 'em shooting and out of trouble!
http://www.co.lewis-clark.mt.us/index.php?id=76
in the upper right hand corner. It was a good day and a 275 for 3P won it.
Thanks for all the input. Keep 'em shooting and out of trouble!