Hi all,
I'm new to these boards, so sorry if this question has been asked before.
I am in the process of starting a 10m indoor air rifling club/team at Umass Amherst. I will have very limited funding until the school decides to honor us as a real sporting team, so for now it will just be a club sport. Due to funding limitations, I need a little help from you guys finding acceptable air rifles for under $200. I know finding quality for this price is difficult to do, but until the money starts rolling in its what I have to do. The guns need to be capable of < .20" groupings at 10m consistently and not fall apart or require major repairs more frequently than once per year with daily use. Do you guys have any suggestions as to what guns I should buy for this club?
I've heard I should keep velocities below 600fps, and avoid Gamo and Remington. I was initially going to go for some $180 Gamos (1000fps) and use 10.5gr pellets to get the velocities down closer to 800fps, but I was told this is not what I should do; I apparently want dedicated fixed-barrel target rifles with no heavier than 7.9gr pellets. I looked at the Baikal IZH-61 and as far as I can tell it would do what I want, but for just over $100 it seems like it has to have some shortcomings. Any suggestions or helpful advice?
Thanks,
Matt
New college 10m air rifling team
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
The two rifles below are "sportster" category rifles.
You won't get used precision category rifles under $200...unless you are VERY lucky. Even the used spring precision rifles like the FWB-300 are over $200. As I mentioned "lucky," IF you find a club that is upgrading from the old spring target rifles to newer CA target rifles, you "might" be able to swing a deal. BUT, because they are old, they may require servicing, and that could kill your deal, cuz you would then be way over $200.
Used Daisy 853, or Daisy 953 + diopter sights.
- The 853 has the better barrel, but new is over your budget, so you have to source the used market.
- The 953 has a better target stock (my opinion). The 953 + sights will easily be under $200. The difference in price between the $80 953 and the over $200 853 is the 853 has a Walther barrel and it has a diopter sight. You can and have to buy the diopter sights separately for the 953, but you are stuck with the stock barrel. Is the Walther barrel that much better...I do NOT know. I use my 953 for plinking and as a starter/trainer rifle, not for competition.
There are 3 trigger mods that you NEED to make if you are going to compete with the x53 series of rifles.
Get this booklet from the CMP, it has the trigger mods + general maintenance of the rifle.
http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/c ... ote5=&max=
Also check w the NRA if grant money is available.
Before you go with certain rifles, YOU need to research if they are legal in the matches you intend to shoot. Some are and some may not be. And it would be a real bummer to show up at a match and be denied to shoot because your rifles are not approved for their match.
The IZH-61 is a 5-shot repeater, you want the single shot 60 (if it is imported again).
BUT, I would shoot the Daisy 953 over the IZH-60. The reason is the IZH is a spring rifle, and that means VIBRATION. While the trigger on the 60/61 is MUCH better than the trigger on the Daisy x53 rifles, the vibration is the deal killer. It is MUCH easier "for me" to shoot the 953 because of the lack of firing vibration.
If you go w the IZH-60 you need to do a few things
- FIRST, see if it will be legal to shoot in the matches.
- Replace the front post sight with an aperture sight. You are at the mercy of the importer, IF they can bring in replacement front sights. They have not responded to MY inquires.
- get a rear diopter sight
- see if you can't find someone to reduce the spring vibration (if that "fix" is legal for the matches you shoot) You cannot eliminate the vibration, only reduce it.
gud luk
You won't get used precision category rifles under $200...unless you are VERY lucky. Even the used spring precision rifles like the FWB-300 are over $200. As I mentioned "lucky," IF you find a club that is upgrading from the old spring target rifles to newer CA target rifles, you "might" be able to swing a deal. BUT, because they are old, they may require servicing, and that could kill your deal, cuz you would then be way over $200.
Used Daisy 853, or Daisy 953 + diopter sights.
- The 853 has the better barrel, but new is over your budget, so you have to source the used market.
- The 953 has a better target stock (my opinion). The 953 + sights will easily be under $200. The difference in price between the $80 953 and the over $200 853 is the 853 has a Walther barrel and it has a diopter sight. You can and have to buy the diopter sights separately for the 953, but you are stuck with the stock barrel. Is the Walther barrel that much better...I do NOT know. I use my 953 for plinking and as a starter/trainer rifle, not for competition.
There are 3 trigger mods that you NEED to make if you are going to compete with the x53 series of rifles.
Get this booklet from the CMP, it has the trigger mods + general maintenance of the rifle.
http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/c ... ote5=&max=
Also check w the NRA if grant money is available.
Before you go with certain rifles, YOU need to research if they are legal in the matches you intend to shoot. Some are and some may not be. And it would be a real bummer to show up at a match and be denied to shoot because your rifles are not approved for their match.
The IZH-61 is a 5-shot repeater, you want the single shot 60 (if it is imported again).
BUT, I would shoot the Daisy 953 over the IZH-60. The reason is the IZH is a spring rifle, and that means VIBRATION. While the trigger on the 60/61 is MUCH better than the trigger on the Daisy x53 rifles, the vibration is the deal killer. It is MUCH easier "for me" to shoot the 953 because of the lack of firing vibration.
If you go w the IZH-60 you need to do a few things
- FIRST, see if it will be legal to shoot in the matches.
- Replace the front post sight with an aperture sight. You are at the mercy of the importer, IF they can bring in replacement front sights. They have not responded to MY inquires.
- get a rear diopter sight
- see if you can't find someone to reduce the spring vibration (if that "fix" is legal for the matches you shoot) You cannot eliminate the vibration, only reduce it.
gud luk
Used 853 Available
I have a nice shooting Daisy 853 for sale for $150 shipped to your door. Includes the gun and 3 stock spacers. Gene Jenkins n4jee@arrl.net
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EcHo
Also try contacting other college coaches. Many of them have old equipment around that they are looking to get rid of cheap if it goes to the right place.
The NRA grant idea is great too. Contact your local rep ASAP as the deadline here in NC was Oct 15th. They will likely let you submit it late if you act now.
Also, have you found out exactly what your University requires for you to become a NCAA Sponsored team? Many places have you be a club team for a few "successful" years before application. I was part of an effort to start a team at the University of Georgia. I still have our proposal if you would like a copy of it.
The NRA grant idea is great too. Contact your local rep ASAP as the deadline here in NC was Oct 15th. They will likely let you submit it late if you act now.
Also, have you found out exactly what your University requires for you to become a NCAA Sponsored team? Many places have you be a club team for a few "successful" years before application. I was part of an effort to start a team at the University of Georgia. I still have our proposal if you would like a copy of it.
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Quest1
Type of Team
Are you trying to start a collegiate competitive rifle team? If you are then you need to approach your problem from a different angle. Getting used sporter or any other rifles that are under $200 might make sense from purely an economical stand point, but from a competitive view you would be putting your team and the school at a very bad competitive edge. They might make good training equipment for your less experienced shooters, but competition against another established team would create other problems for you. First of all it might make it difficult in getting other college teams wanting to come to your school to compete. You might be able to convince some schools that are close by to help out, but if you are an NCAA team your required to shot so many matches year and it might make it difficult for you meet that requirement, especially if are short of money and it means your on the road traveling to meet those requirements.
However, I think we are getting head of ourselves. This is going to be a long term effort and since you are just starting out it will probably be a year or two before you can put together and train a competitive team, so the following are some random thoughts you might want to consider.
The first thing you might want to do is find shooters that are planning to come to your school that are already competitive air rifle shooters and if you have a range that you can shoot smallbore many of the air rifle shooters also shot smallbore and all the equipment they need to shot matches. These people can form the basis for A and maybe even your B team. I would be surprised if don't already have at least one or two shooters in the school already.
Second you can ask around at various colleges, clubs, or universities if they have any excess equipment that they would be willing to give up or sell at a small cost. You can use this equipment to help train your less experienced shooters who would probably just starting out and have no equipment of their own. I talked to the coach in Nevada a few years ago and he had at one time some Steyr LG100 rifles that he was willing to part with at relatively cheap price. However, those rifles are now gone.
The other thing you can do is to raise money, which is the least fun thing to do. One way is to go to the department on campus that helps raise money and every school has one. If you become a recognized NCAA school team then going to the department will be much easier for them to help you raise money. However, I don't know if they will help out if your a club sport. It doesn't hurt to ask all they can say is no. You can put in a request to your local state committee for the Friends of the NRA and ask for a grant. If you have other people already in your club they can help you go out into the community to help raise money such as going to sporting stores and maybe other businesses. If there any local gun clubs they maybe able to help out particularly if are holding raffles.
Once a team has been formed and recognized as club or an official athletic varsity team then you can apply to be an NCAA team, which isn't all that difficult. The athletic department will probably want the coach for the team to take the test to become NCAA certified.
However, I think we are getting head of ourselves. This is going to be a long term effort and since you are just starting out it will probably be a year or two before you can put together and train a competitive team, so the following are some random thoughts you might want to consider.
The first thing you might want to do is find shooters that are planning to come to your school that are already competitive air rifle shooters and if you have a range that you can shoot smallbore many of the air rifle shooters also shot smallbore and all the equipment they need to shot matches. These people can form the basis for A and maybe even your B team. I would be surprised if don't already have at least one or two shooters in the school already.
Second you can ask around at various colleges, clubs, or universities if they have any excess equipment that they would be willing to give up or sell at a small cost. You can use this equipment to help train your less experienced shooters who would probably just starting out and have no equipment of their own. I talked to the coach in Nevada a few years ago and he had at one time some Steyr LG100 rifles that he was willing to part with at relatively cheap price. However, those rifles are now gone.
The other thing you can do is to raise money, which is the least fun thing to do. One way is to go to the department on campus that helps raise money and every school has one. If you become a recognized NCAA school team then going to the department will be much easier for them to help you raise money. However, I don't know if they will help out if your a club sport. It doesn't hurt to ask all they can say is no. You can put in a request to your local state committee for the Friends of the NRA and ask for a grant. If you have other people already in your club they can help you go out into the community to help raise money such as going to sporting stores and maybe other businesses. If there any local gun clubs they maybe able to help out particularly if are holding raffles.
Once a team has been formed and recognized as club or an official athletic varsity team then you can apply to be an NCAA team, which isn't all that difficult. The athletic department will probably want the coach for the team to take the test to become NCAA certified.
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Guest
Quest1: The long-term goal is to start an actual collegiate rifling team, however I was already in contact with the school's athletic director and he said there will be no more official sports created due to budget constraints. So for now I have to keep it a club sport. I tried contacting other rifling teams' coaches in the area (Harvard, MIT, Wentworth about 2 months ago) and no one answered me.
Guest: Do you happen to have the Item ID for those 853/753 rifles on the CMP? I can't find them by just doing a search.
Guest: Do you happen to have the Item ID for those 853/753 rifles on the CMP? I can't find them by just doing a search.
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Guest
Yes, if you could email a copy of it to UmassRifling@gmail.com that would be awesomeSoupy44 wrote:I still have our proposal if you would like a copy of it.
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Quest1
Cmp
I wasn't aware that Harvard has a rifle team. I know MIT has a rifle team and they have fairly good shooters on their team. You will have to persistent in trying to contact them as they are probably doing multiple jobs and if they are an NCAA team they will be shooting matches almost every weekend until probably December.Anonymous wrote:Quest1: The long-term goal is to start an actual collegiate rifling team, however I was already in contact with the school's athletic director and he said there will be no more official sports created due to budget constraints. So for now I have to keep it a club sport. I tried contacting other rifling teams' coaches in the area (Harvard, MIT, Wentworth about 2 months ago) and no one answered me.
Guest: Do you happen to have the Item ID for those 853/753 rifles on the CMP? I can't find them by just doing a search.
You can still shot as an NCAA team. You will just have to do it as a non scholarship team, which usually means a division III or maybe II if you can come up with some small amounts of scholarship money. There are people out there that have to donate some much money every because of the their income. We have a couple around area that have to donate so much every year unfortunately they aren't into donating to shooting programs. One of them has to donate millions every year.
You can all the CMP about the number, but if you already belong to the CMP you can order online. The club can be register or join the CMP and then you can buy the items on sale at their website.
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Guest
Good Luck.
I've done what you're about to do.
In fact, I took five college shooters to a collegiate 3P match today.
When it's not so late at night, I'll respond some more.
Or you can email me at rhill@uafortsmith.edu with any question you want ot ask me.
Again, good luck.....especially in Mass.
Roy Hill
I've done what you're about to do.
In fact, I took five college shooters to a collegiate 3P match today.
When it's not so late at night, I'll respond some more.
Or you can email me at rhill@uafortsmith.edu with any question you want ot ask me.
Again, good luck.....especially in Mass.
Roy Hill
here what i did ..i went out and bought 8 daisy air sporter typles for the guys and girls to have the air rifles for the little team i put togerther here in texas ..my stepdaughter has her own air rifle ..my wife father and i went into togerther and bought case lots of pellets and air rifle targets and stands and target patchs for them to pratice with ..
the biggest problem was the kid parents letting them come out and let them try the sport ..for the kids parents where like if they have problems in school are you going to let them go to the matchs i told them no they must keep a b or better school grades ..and some times it a little hard for a couple of the kids who lives on farms in the area to make it to pratices sesson for there are dealing with the farm and the work they have to do on it ..
the kids bring there homework out to the barn and they have to do it first before they can pratice ..and my wife goes over it before they can leave to make sure it right....
we pratice inside a garage shed that was cleared out and the range marked off for pratice ..with it beening a little cold in the winter time and little warm in the summer time ..
my little team is made of girls and boys from the three local area small towm schools in the county that are not big enough to any typle of shooting team. this schools are barely big enough to support a high school football team and other regular sports in the area of high school sports..i do not have any of the so called jocks in the schools most of the kids i have on the small team are the ones who are basic high school and jr high typles of kids ...they pratice after school ..since most of the kids live out in the county ..the older kids who can drive pick up the younger kids from there school area and take them to the pratice sessions and then give them a ride home ..since i live out on a farm i made a deal with my father in law about paying for the gas we used for the kids cars that the kids come out to pratice ....i take a little gas from the farm gas stowage tank and put gas into the kids who drives cars for them picking them up and takeing them home to help with the cost of picking them up and takeing them home from the sesson at night ..at the end of each month i just give him so much cash for the gas i have give to the kids for them picking the other kids up..
the next big problem for us is been allowed to shoot by the bigger schools that have teams ..where still in the proccess of dealling with some of the schools ..but we went with the local 4.h program for now ..
my main goal has been to get the kids into the texas school system of shooting sports in the state ... i did go to the one of the schools and ask them for there support for the kids so they could go under the school system ..i was told that the school would not allow it for the pupuse of ins reason for which i could understand that one ..so it been a tough year trying to get the kids into the local shooting scenes ..
so i know how you feel on that one ..it seam we take three streps forward and get draged back 10 steps ...
the biggest problem was the kid parents letting them come out and let them try the sport ..for the kids parents where like if they have problems in school are you going to let them go to the matchs i told them no they must keep a b or better school grades ..and some times it a little hard for a couple of the kids who lives on farms in the area to make it to pratices sesson for there are dealing with the farm and the work they have to do on it ..
the kids bring there homework out to the barn and they have to do it first before they can pratice ..and my wife goes over it before they can leave to make sure it right....
we pratice inside a garage shed that was cleared out and the range marked off for pratice ..with it beening a little cold in the winter time and little warm in the summer time ..
my little team is made of girls and boys from the three local area small towm schools in the county that are not big enough to any typle of shooting team. this schools are barely big enough to support a high school football team and other regular sports in the area of high school sports..i do not have any of the so called jocks in the schools most of the kids i have on the small team are the ones who are basic high school and jr high typles of kids ...they pratice after school ..since most of the kids live out in the county ..the older kids who can drive pick up the younger kids from there school area and take them to the pratice sessions and then give them a ride home ..since i live out on a farm i made a deal with my father in law about paying for the gas we used for the kids cars that the kids come out to pratice ....i take a little gas from the farm gas stowage tank and put gas into the kids who drives cars for them picking them up and takeing them home to help with the cost of picking them up and takeing them home from the sesson at night ..at the end of each month i just give him so much cash for the gas i have give to the kids for them picking the other kids up..
the next big problem for us is been allowed to shoot by the bigger schools that have teams ..where still in the proccess of dealling with some of the schools ..but we went with the local 4.h program for now ..
my main goal has been to get the kids into the texas school system of shooting sports in the state ... i did go to the one of the schools and ask them for there support for the kids so they could go under the school system ..i was told that the school would not allow it for the pupuse of ins reason for which i could understand that one ..so it been a tough year trying to get the kids into the local shooting scenes ..
so i know how you feel on that one ..it seam we take three streps forward and get draged back 10 steps ...
A couple of things that came up in our UGA proposal was selling the benefits of a team to the AD (Athletic Director/Athletic Department). College sports are a multi-million dollar business now, approaching billion. CBS pays the NCAA $500M ANNUALLY to broadcast March Madness.
The two easy benefits are Title IX and academics. Most of the programs around the country are either 50%+ female or all female. A rifle team is a somewhat cheap way to help with the Title IX compliance. As for academics, most collegiate shooters are very good students. The average GPA of a female shooter NCAA wide is in the top 5 of all sports, male or female. Past those two, it really boils down to individual circumstances.
Good luck.
The two easy benefits are Title IX and academics. Most of the programs around the country are either 50%+ female or all female. A rifle team is a somewhat cheap way to help with the Title IX compliance. As for academics, most collegiate shooters are very good students. The average GPA of a female shooter NCAA wide is in the top 5 of all sports, male or female. Past those two, it really boils down to individual circumstances.
Good luck.
Here is a link to the CMP 853 order form.
http://www.odcmp.com/Forms/DaisyUsedForm.pdf
They are used guns but they are in good condition and are very accurate for the price.
http://www.odcmp.com/Forms/DaisyUsedForm.pdf
They are used guns but they are in good condition and are very accurate for the price.
we have one of the biggest colleges in the area of texas where we are at in Texas ..the University of Texas it about 150 miles away from us .. as i talked to the local area coachs it painfully clear it the bigger programs in the schools that gets the lion share of the money in the school programs ..for this programs are the one that draws in the people to the school and they are one that makes people come to the school at times ..
most high school and college level shooting sports are realy at the bottom of the barrel when it come to the funding that the other school sports programs has for the football and basketball teams programs..
but like person said about it beening a even playering field for women in the field of rifle team ..
for most part the college level shooting teams breaks down into half males and females on the teams that do college level shooting events and you do not find the basket weaveing 101 typles on the team ....the grade point avg on most team are the highest in the schools that they are in ..
intill shooting sports in college level get to the level of the basket ball and football programs level it will be a second class sport in the college sport system ..
most high school and college level shooting sports are realy at the bottom of the barrel when it come to the funding that the other school sports programs has for the football and basketball teams programs..
but like person said about it beening a even playering field for women in the field of rifle team ..
for most part the college level shooting teams breaks down into half males and females on the teams that do college level shooting events and you do not find the basket weaveing 101 typles on the team ....the grade point avg on most team are the highest in the schools that they are in ..
intill shooting sports in college level get to the level of the basket ball and football programs level it will be a second class sport in the college sport system ..
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Guest
For more help, you might try contacting Victoria Croft (703-267-1473 or vcroft@nrahq.org) at the NRA. She is in charge of scholastic programs and works with the NCAA and collegiate programs all the time.
Hi Matt,
I am the coach of the Wentworth Institute of Technology Rifle Team.
Give me a ring or email if you'd like.
Cell:7818586188
george@pantazelos.com
I am the coach of the Wentworth Institute of Technology Rifle Team.
Give me a ring or email if you'd like.
Cell:7818586188
george@pantazelos.com