Drills to Eliminate Wild High Shots and Shooting too Fast

[gandalfpc]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here looking at your last two targets, but I would say that your hold is better than you think it is - in the area of the small group just above the bull - and that the shots below the bull are due to your chin dropping or arm tiring (if the hold on those was to long)

In which case your group is a bit high of the bull and you should adjust the sights down or aim a bit more sub 6...

of course if those low shots feel the same as the high shots to you then I am wrong and you can ignore all that :)

also, you were saying you rushed the shots, but also said that you should have aborted them - not sure if you meant you were rushing (firing before aiming and settling) or holding too long then shooting rather than aborting

[gandalfpc]

assuming you are not jerking the trigger when you see "perfect sight alignment" and are letting the shots go off by a steady application of pressure - you should be able to tell your hold area from your error shots easy enough - shots in your hold area will be evenly distributed (the more shots, the more even the distribution)

error and wild shots will be by themselves, sometimes in another group - another group of error shots usually belong to the "looking up at the target" or "drooping the chin" category, but can also come from trigger pull or grip errors.

of course keeping the same stance and grip for the string is a must, as changing either will change your groupings...

[joe1347]

assuming you are not jerking the trigger when you see "perfect sight alignment" and are letting the shots go off by a steady application of pressure - you should be able to tell your hold area from your error shots easy enough - shots in your hold area will be evenly distributed (the more shots, the more even the distribution)

error and wild shots will be by themselves, sometimes in another group - another group of error shots usually belong to the "looking up at the target" or "drooping the chin" category, but can also come from trigger pull or grip errors.

of course keeping the same stance and grip for the string is a must, as changing either will change your groupings...

I becoming more convinced that most of my wild shots (at least today) now are in the "looking up at the target" category (and taking my off of the sights).

After the mention of the sub 6 hold in the thread above, I did a quick search to first find out about the sub 6 hold and ran across the Nygord Notes. Well my first sub 6 hold attempt was a disaster. I suspect that my mind can't get around not aiming at my desired point of impact. I'll stick with a center hold for the time being.

Of course, Nygord had plenty other great advice and possibly appropriate to the thread was a 1 minute per shot shooting routine with 20 sec for the shot and 40 seconds of rest in between shots, which may help out since I might be getting a little fatiqued as you also suggested above. Plus, possibly following a timed shot schedule will help me to slow down my pace.

[gandalfpc]

Try shooting at the blank side of the target - aim in the same zone your normally do - just like dry fire on a blank wall, lift settle, focus on maintaining perfect sight alignment until shot goes off

you will likely see very nice groups - better than you do when there is a target - this is due to the increased concentration (or should we say decreased distraction) of not having the bull.

After that you can try a deep sub 6 again with a normal target - you may still decide to go with a sub 6 or 6, but you will still gain some benefit from the exercise.

Further note, not watching the sights can produce a shot anywhere - location of shot provides no real info - looking up at target right after (or as) we fire (poor follow through) tend to put shots high every time. Drooping chin always seems to put shots low.

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

"I suspect that my mind can't get around not aiming at my desired point of impact."

Much more importantly . . . and perhaps "implied" in the thread overall . . . is the issue of

"The shooter believing that the proper sight picture (rear sight, front sight, and target) must be achieved priopr to releasing the shot."

I know that isn't what you said exactly . . . but I get the feeling you believe that the target provides some information relevant to your delivering a good shot.

It doesn't have to take as obvious a form as "looking at the target" as you already admit that is a Bad Thing.

It can sneak in at a much more subtle (and insidious) level.

Are you absolutely certain you aren't trying to line up the rear sight and front sight tot he target?

Steve

[PETE S]

OK, Steve, i am tring to line everything up, front sight in the rear, rear sight front sight and target...which I know well is NOT possible.

My correction is to only work on sight alignment of the front in the rear...

Can you suggest some drills...approaches...

[Steve Swartz]

Pete:

I think I've shared most of these before . . . but I teach a whole bunch of drills that allow you to separate the critical "Alignment" and "Trigger" elements of technique from "Aiming" ("Aiming" not only being something you don't want to work on, but something yoiu don't want to start doing in any case).

Align: Holding against neutral (textured) surface
Objective: Develop physical and mental intensity and purity of focus; develop "muscle memory" [sic] and recognition of perfect alignment during settle

- Use NPA and go through shot process; peak intensity at settle
- Same as above but "overhold" for an extended time period
- Same as above but against constant and variable resistance (random best)


Trigger: manipulating trigger without distraction
Objective: Develop hand "feel" (kinesthetic sense) of perfect trigger release; sensitivity to trigger break; rapid, sure, consistent application of trigger pressure

- Seated/Arm Supported eyes closed trigger pumps (up to but not over second stage) while visualizing perfect break
- Same as above but with actual dry fire
- Eyes closed shot process with pumps
- Same as above but with actual dry fire


Alignment and Trigger: Manipulation of trigger without disturbance to aligned sights
Objective: Blend perfect alignment technique with perfect trigger technique; establish perfect alignment as trigger release signal

- Seated/Arm supported trigger pumps against neutral (textured) surface
- Same as above with dry fire
- Shot process trigger pumps against neutral (textured) surface
- Same as above but with dry fire

You get the basic idea . . . you are attempting to improve your triggering and alignment without the distraction of the "aiming" process.

Your end game is a smooth, straight, uninterrupted rapid manipulation of the trigger without disturbing sight alignment; triggered by a recongition of perfect alignment while settled in the aiming area.

At that point, all you really need to do is establish the conditions that result in yoiur being settled in your aiming area!

[David Levene]

Oh Steve, drills for training the elements.

Bill won't like that ;-)

[PETE S]

Steve, I printed out your reply and have to work it into a training schedule.
I know I have the hold, the alignment techiques, the proper release but have made a negative detour on the way shooting consistant good scores/groups. I have scored consistently about 520 in FP but have fallen off the wagon. And I suspect it is the mixing of sight alignment and target and trying to get them all aligned! (which leads to breaking the wrist)

I have gotten into middle distance running. 10k races and next is a half marathon. I find it interesting that the training program never has me run a 10k or half-marathon. Tonight is technical training. Total distance will be 7 miles (maybe, Richmond temperatures are above 90F).
1 1/2 mile warm up
1 mile in 8 minutes (pretty good pascefor me)
1/2 mile jog
1 mile in 8 minutes
1/2 mile jog
1 mile in 8 minutes
1 1/2 mile cool down jog
This is intended to improve my speed for my half marathon (13.2 miles)
Some workouts are just recovery runs, just 2 miles easy, between these intense workouts.

Point relating to shooting training is that training is not all about putting lead down range under match conditions!

[2650 Plus]

Firing a perfect shot under match conditions is the culmination of your training. If you are ever to arrive at this point. sometime some where in your training you must start putting togeather an intergrated act of firing that shot. This will probably surprise Daved but I see nothing wrong with perfecting each individual act required to control the shot. BUT, individual acts are not sufficient. Some where you should begin working on the intergration of the steps into a controled flow that enables you to not only shoot a good shot but to repeat the flow at will. As you said about running the half marathon training may not incompass the whole of the event but in shooting it comes pretty close. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[paw080]

Steve, I printed out your reply and have to work it into a training schedule.
I know I have the hold, the alignment techiques, the proper release but have made a negative detour on the way shooting consistant good scores/groups. I have scored consistently about 520 in FP but have fallen off the wagon. And I suspect it is the mixing of sight alignment and target and trying to get them all aligned! (which leads to breaking the wrist)

I have gotten into middle distance running. 10k races and next is a half marathon. I find it interesting that the training program never has me run a 10k or half-marathon. Tonight is technical training. Total distance will be 7 miles (maybe, Richmond temperatures are above 90F).
1 1/2 mile warm up
1 mile in 8 minutes (pretty good pascefor me)
1/2 mile jog
1 mile in 8 minutes
1/2 mile jog
1 mile in 8 minutes
1 1/2 mile cool down jog
This is intended to improve my speed for my half marathon (13.2 miles)
Some workouts are just recovery runs, just 2 miles easy, between these intense workouts.

Point relating to shooting training is that training is not all about putting lead down range under match conditions!

Hi Steve, I know this is way off topic, but you are not training properly to
increase your speed. you need to work on your form at a pace much faster than
8 minutes per mile. I don't know your age or prior running experience;
so I'll leave it at that. feel free to email me at sgallegos2@earthlink.net
for more info.

Tony G

[PETE S]

Bill, could you describe what emphasis, or percentage or how you would have a developing shooter spend time drilling in the way Steve describes compared to training the integrated act of firing?

I have experimented with a combination of drills, SCAT training and live fire. When I first started shooting pistol back in the late 1970's, all we ever did was shot matches on Monday; Wednesday was league match.

When I started to get serious I started to learn about drills for improving techniques.

One local shooter who is slowly improving I suspect is very typical. He says he is training with the AP an hour a day. He can now break 510 regularly with the AP. I have suggested doing some drills as part of his training.

A good discussion about these ideas would probably be helpful for the fancy. Please share.

PS: I did complete the 7 miles; times were right about the 8 minute mark for the mile, but a struggle in the heat. I have been running seriously since January. My 10k pace is 51 minutes and looking to improve. I am 54, never ran before in any competition but do have experienced friends.

Thanks
Pete S

[David Levene]

This will probably surprise Daved but I see nothing wrong with perfecting each individual act required to control the shot.

Then why did you say I was wrong when I suggested doing exactly that.

[luftskytter]

OK, you asked for drills and got drills....... :-)

Some of my personal ideas:

I also use the "finger away from the trigger" until sight picture is "acceptable" method. Or at least don't take up the first stage travel until you're ready. I think the centre shot sight picture has the advantage of making this decision easy, but it also creates more stress and makes you crave for the "perfect centre". Shooting sub six is a confidence thing: sit down with a target and figure it out. If your aim is in the middle between the black and the outside of the 1 ring: it will be between the 3 and the 4. If you raise the sights halfway between this and the black?
That's a big mistake right, cutting the white above the sight in half, and you'll surely notice? Where would the score be? Surprised?

Now onto the follow through: I believe what you should be looking for, is the sight picture, not the score. You want to see the perfect sight picture after you've completed the shot. If the sights were in the middle just before firing and just after the shot was fired? Well I guess it can't have moved much, and you'd see a ten when you have a look through the scope. Using a scope to look at every shot during excercise may build a barrier between shooting and scoring, in addition to developing an informal attitude towards looking through those things so they don't make you nervous in competition. It may also slow your shooting down a little.

I use my grip to tame the wild shots: I set the grip thoroughly into my hand and use firm pressure between my thumb and middle finger. My ring finger gets little attention, but the little finger pushes the grip into my palm and also pushes the platform against the underside of my hand.
The pinky needs this solid platform to push against or else it will create trembling/vibration. I can shoot with a very loose grip and let the gun "hang", but if my triggerwork is less than perfect, nothing stops my gun from moving. A solid grip also builds hand strength and this is a help in itself.....

What more? My electronic trigger doesn't "break". There's no reaction when it's switched off, but I know the only difference when shooting, is th electromagnet going "click". That has nothing to do with my triggerwork!
So I just have to keep reminding myself: "it doesn't really click or break".
So therefor I don't need a trigger travel stop, cause there's nothing to stop! Mechanical triggers are not that different really; you should just squeeze, and I've been told that even speedshooters squeeeeze, they just squeeze a bit faster!

And yes I use a "ball" sight that fits inside the black, a sotrt of centre shot,
and I can easily shoot all blacks with the target turned with the white side out; finding the middle of things is instinctive. We can all do that if we relax!

One more timing thing: when I raise my gun and sights, there's a short stable periode where everything is fine, then things start to wobble, and then they settle down again into a longer stable period. It's possible to shoot during the first of these periods and get good results, but I use the second. I believe this is safer in the long term unless you want to get really triggerhappy!

[2650 Plus]

For David. When I read your post it seemed to sugest that concentrating on the positive was probably not the only way to deal with errors. But David there are thousands of ways to screw up a shot and a very limited number that one has to execute properly to win the match. I keep going back to a statement made by our national three gun record holder. He said " I spent one month removing every negative concept fron my approach to delivering the shot on target." In my opinion, any negative thought, even just thinking ,I have to be careful. Is destructive to good shot control.Absolute and total confidence in my technique on every shot always adds points to my match results. I have arrived at the pont where I am convinced that learning to repeat the sequence that produces the best results is the way to go and that trying to deal with each and every mistake is detrimental to the goal of good shooting. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[David Levene]

For David. When I read your post it seemed to sugest that concentrating on the positive was probably not the only way to deal with errors.

What I actually said was "Once you have identified what is causing your bad shots you can forget about them. During training you can then concentrate on the perfect execution of that element of the shot process."

If you identify a faulty execution of an element of the shot process then you need to train it until you KNOW that you will execute it perfectly for every shot. That is not negative thinking, it's positive.

Get to the same level of confidence for all of the main elements of the shot and you expect, not just hope for, a 10 every time you raise the pistol.

[Steve Swartz]

" . . . I suspect it is the mixing of sight alignment and target and trying to get them all aligned! (which leads to breaking the wrist)"

Pete: Well, there's good news and their's bad news. The good news is what you describe is probably *the most common* way to "Fall Off the Wagon" (so to speak!) or never even get in the wagon in the first place.

The bad news that it's very common for a reason. Even working at your hardest level of intensity, purposefully aware that this is your main problem (wrongly thinking the taget provides any useful information into the shooting process at all), a top-notch shooter will be lucky if he/she only catches themselves doing this 15%-25%* of the time.

Of course, the good shooters *recongize* when they are doing this in time to abort the shot!

So

Assuming you have properly diagnosed your problem (Distance-Based Coaching is a bitch), the Step 1 (of a good twelve step program- ours is Paper Punchers Anonymous?) is to recognize you have a problem.

Check.

Step 2 (to quote a great once national team coach) is to "Stop Doing That!"

The drills will help . . . you have to separate the target image from your shot process (finish up with lots of live fire on blank card). And, more importantly, add to/beef up your shot process to include a positive reinforcement of the "accepting the settle while sights aligned" principle. Visualize a perfectly aligned, perfectly clean break as you loft the gun perhaps . . . or something similar . . . either add this step to your shot process temporarily or permanently as you see fit . . .


Bill and David: I don't recall ever personally- nor do I ever recall David- proposing in any way that by "disaggregating the shot process" into discrete elements had anything whatsoever to do with a "negative approach to fixing errors" in the shot process.

First of all, it would a weird and inappropriate jump to make (the two aren't directly related in any meaningful way), and I would definitely remember if either of us even hinted at such a thing.

Second, I know that the "school" of coaching (what is currently being preached by ASEP and oher professional coaching training and certification organizations) definitely says just the opposite- that you need to disaggregate your training effort in order to focus on positive improvement and development.

I mean, all successful professional sports franchises use this approach from cricket to american football.

So why wouldn't the same approach work for shooting?

Steve

* Cheatem, Dewey (2001) "Making Up Statistics to Have Fun and Influence People," European Journal of Statistically Insignificant Differences, v42 i6, pp. 237-249

[Gwhite]

"Step 2 (to quote a great once national team coach) is to "Stop Doing That!"

I'm very surprised that a "great once national coach" would say that. The first thing I was taught about training & mental management was to focus on doing things properly, rather than focusing on not doing the wrong thing.

If you are having problems with looking at the target, you will improve a lot faster if you tell yourself to focus on your sights rather than telling yourself NOT to look at the target. The brain is much better at learning specific positive actions than is is at dealing with the abstraction of a vague negative.

[2650 Plus]

Pete, I subscribeto the concept that each practice session dealing with a subset of your technique should be followed by attempting to intergrate what you have just been polishing into your complete shot sequence.Live fire to follow Steves dry fire practice. If you fire the first shot perfectly and the target provides real feed back reinforcing your sequence with the proverbial ten you can stop your training session right there. If you have a bit of difficulty integrating into the shot sequence continue live fire uotil you have that one perfect executionm Then stop. You will have had a good solid training day and the next step should be a mental rehersal of the way you fired the shot. The more perfectly you can mentally rehearse the greater effect it will have on your performance. The more often you reherse also will provide support to your shooting, And the nearer you reherse to the moment you are going to fire has the same effect. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[PETE S]

Vacation day today so I enjoyed the day by spraying lead out of the AP.

I started off well, first 40 in the nine ring. Then the wheels came off. Pondering and working...There is that little subtle difference between aligning the sights and looking at the target that I have to relearn. I did see it and got back on the wagon for the last ten rounds.

Now to develop some drills to recognize the difference...as a positive action...which is what many of Steve's drills and Bill is suggesting concerning working on a subset...

Thanks to Steve, Bill and David et. al.