Recommended sub $500 Competition Air Pistol?

[joe1347]

Sometime ago, I asked a similar question and the consensus was to find a good used CO2 Air Pistol. Well, I took the offered advice and purchased a used Aeron Chameleon (B96?) as a step up from a Daisy 747. Granted, many on this board might not place the Aeron Chameleon in the 'good' category. However, accuracy of the Chameleon is great, the trigger's not bad, and even the grip - as ugly as it is - is actually pretty comfortable. I've been using CO2 cartridges, so there's the annoyance of having to change cartridges every 40 or so shots. Plus, you need to give the seals a little time to warm up between cartridge changes. So, while fine for 'budget' basement shooting, the Aeron Chameleon (with CO2 cartridges) likely isn't something one would want to use for a 'real' AP match. However, I suspect that using the CO2 'bottle' (instead of CO2 cartridges) would be fine for competition.

Anyway, I'm thinking of getting something better (and possibly less ugly) and would like to not go the CO2 gas gun route this time. My first thought was an IZH-46M - but I'm wondering if this would be more of a step backwards instead of getting something actually better. However, I've never fired an IZH-46M, so I really don't know one way or the other.

Of course, a good used PCP is likely the best - but not so 'budget' option. For some odd reason :) Nobody seems to want to sell a Steyr or Morini for less than $1000. A cheap Benelli Kite is also impossible to find. One good reason for the US Dollar to get strong again.

Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated? Thanks.

[AlexE]

Why not look into the Matchguns MG1 offered by Cesare Morini. He was also the designer of the Morini line of air pistols.

[joe1347]

Why not look into the Matchguns MG1 offered by Cesare Morini. He was also the designer of the Morini line of air pistols.

I don't believe that the MG1 is available in the US?

[Rover]

You're right...your choice wasn't good enough.

If I had $500 to spend I would look for (in this order) a used:
FWB 100 series (if you can find one)
Pardini K58
Pardini K60
FWB 65 (or 80) with adjustable or custom grips

Despite what some people feel, any of these quality pistols would be fully competitive up to the national level and beyond.

Of course, if you're convinced that a PCP will badly thrash you, you're absolutely right and you should start saving up for one.

[joe1347]

You're right...your choice wasn't good enough.

If I had $500 to spend I would look for (in this order) a used:
FWB 100 series (if you can find one)
Pardini K58
Pardini K60
FWB 65 (or 80) with adjustable or custom grips

Despite what some people feel, any of these quality pistols would be fully competitive up to the national level and beyond.

Of course, if you're convinced that a PCP will badly thrash you, you're absolutely right and you should start saving up for one.

The problem is finding any of your suggestions - which leads again to the question as to whether the readibly obtainable IZH-46M is the smart budget choice. Also, the IZH-46M grip can be upgraded. While not a Morini or Rink grip, the woodsandwaters IZH-46M grip looks reasonable and possibly could come in handy if the Baikal 672 ever materializes.

http://www.woodsandwateroutdoors.com/IZHPage.htm

[David Levene]

Despite what some people feel, any of these quality pistols would be fully competitive up to the national level and beyond.

There is little doubt that, in the hands of the right shooter, those pistols would shoot high scores. I would have equally little doubt however that those shooters would get higher scores with more modern types of pistol.

As competition shooters we should not be particularly interested in just shooting a good score. We should be more interested in shooting the highest score we can.

Each new generation of pistol does not necessarilly bring higher World Record scores. What they do however is make it easier for reasonable shooters to shoot the highest scores they can.

[Rover]

David,
Sorry, but myself and my AA (Master Class) shooter friends who own multiple APs find no attributable difference in their scores when switching from one gun to another and find that other factors such as the grips or trigger are more important. One of them is now at the National Championship (USA) competing with a Pardini K58 when he owns a Morini PCP as well.

Joe 1347,
You can get any one of the four guns I suggested easily on the Classifieds here. Look and wait or advertise your desires and budget.

[David Levene]

Sorry, but myself and my AA (Master Class) shooter friends who own multiple APs find no attributable difference in their scores when switching from one gun to another and find that other factors such as the grips or trigger are more important.

Out of interest, how long do you give each pistol before switching.

[Rover]

For myself, I switched back and forth between a K58 and two K60s for about eight years with a couple of Walther CP3s in there, too. One of each had a Turbo-Comp (not the K58, they won't fit).

The guy mentioned above has had the K58 for over a year; the Morini much longer.

Another is using a K58, K60, and Morini and he uses them interchangably and I see no difference in his scores, but he is now making a real effort with the K58 (grips and sights). We'll see on that.

I like to play with this stuff, but I don't see that spending $2000 for an air pistol is really going to help any mid-level shooter. It was only this year that the record held by CO2 was broken and in the US the national record is still held by CO2 by a guy from here in Scottsdale.

[GaryN]

Joe
I have not shot the IZH46, but I've heard that it is quite muzzle heavy.

There is another option.
Stay with CO2, but go with bulk filled, vs the 12g cartridge. My Walther CPM-2 will easily shoot a full match + sighters + more. IOW well over 100 shots. There are many top end CO2 air pistols (FWB, Morini, Pardini, Steyr, Walther), and on the used market they sell for significantly less than CA air pistols. Contact our host Pilkingtons, and ask what they have in stock, and get on their wait list for a co2 air pistol. Or post a "want" post on the classified section of the forum.

[Rover]

How I do blather.

Before the above I was using FWB 65s, an FWB90, a Walther CP I bought from the Canadian Nat'l Champ, and a Pardini P10. I sold the P10 to a non-shooting friend and he got the bug. He bought a K58 and progressed to Master class with my coaching.

The FWB 90 was the gun I shot my best scores with, ever. I never could do as well with the CP (or anything else). I still root out a good score now and then, but I'm getting older and blinder.

[zollman]

Why not look into the Matchguns MG1 offered by Cesare Morini. He was also the designer of the Morini line of air pistols.

I don't believe that the MG1 is available in the US?

International Shooters Service (ISS) in Fort Worth, Texas carries them. I think he has a used one for sale. I don't remember if it was the mechanical or electronic. I don't know if he is an authorized agent, if that even exists for Matchguns.

zollman

[David Levene]

It was only this year that the record held by CO2 was broken and in the US the national record is still held by CO2 by a guy from here in Scottsdale.

If you have an "almost perfect" repeatable technique then you are just relying on the intrinsic accuracy of the gun. Sergei Pyzhianov, especially when on top form, was such a shooter

I still maintain however that for those of us "lesser mortals", a more modern gun can mitigate the effect of our technical shortcomings.

[joe1347]

Joe
I have not shot the IZH46, but I've heard that it is quite muzzle heavy.

There is another option.
Stay with CO2, but go with bulk filled, vs the 12g cartridge. My Walther CPM-2 will easily shoot a full match + sighters + more. IOW well over 100 shots. There are many top end CO2 air pistols (FWB, Morini, Pardini, Steyr, Walther), and on the used market they sell for significantly less than CA air pistols. Contact our host Pilkingtons, and ask what they have in stock, and get on their wait list for a co2 air pistol. Or post a "want" post on the classified section of the forum.

Thanks for the excellent advice on bulk filled CO2, but for my next AP - I still think that I would prefer either a PCP or single stroke Pneumatic (SSP). I guess that I've just developed a distaste for CO2. Looking at the SSP's, while the FWB 103 would be my first choice, clearly it's unlikely that I would be able to purchase one used for around $500. The Pardini K58 - also recommended above - looks like a great choice. But again, can you actually buy one (used) today in good condition for $500? Of course, if I start thinking about spending more (than $500), then a used PCP starts to make sense.

As an aside, this in-between market seems to be an obvious niche for an Asian manufacturer. Wonder why there aren't any? I assume that the volumes are just too small to justify the investment.

[Rover]

I've seen FWB 65s go for as little as $100 (somewhat ratty). These are still excellent, accurate guns.

I'm certain you could find a K58, my 1st choice in your price range, for less than $500. They are very dependable and not a big deal to rebuild.

If someone out there in Television Land has one for sale contact this guy and help him out.

[joe1347]

I've seen FWB 65s go for as little as $100 (somewhat ratty). These are still excellent, accurate guns.

I'm certain you could find a K58, my 1st choice in your price range, for less than $500. They are very dependable and not a big deal to rebuild.

If someone out there in Television Land has one for sale contact this guy and help him out.

Thanks for the advice, WTB for a Pardini used K58 with a med/large RH grip just submitted (for $450) to the Buy/Sell/Trade forum. See what happens.

[jipe]

I like to play with this stuff, but I don't see that spending $2000 for an air pistol is really going to help any mid-level shooter. It was only this year that the record held by CO2 was broken and in the US the national record is still held by CO2 by a guy from here in Scottsdale.

You don't tell the full story: yes, the previous record of 593 was held with by a CO2 pistol but this CO2 pistol was a Steyr LP1 = a $2000 equivalent CO2 pistol (it was 20 years ago, if you translate the price of the LP1 twenty years ago into current prices you end up with a price very similar to the current price of the LP10, the successor of the LP1), this LP1 pistol is in fact very similar to the Steyr LP10 used to set the new world record of 594.

So the previous world record was held by a pistol that has nothing to do with the list of old technology pistols you recommend.

[MochiMochi]

I have both the K58 and the 46M. They are both excellent APs with differences but none that seriously affect accuracy. Out of the box the K58 is definitely more refined and feels great. The grip is beautiful and comfortable. Finish is good. The bore line is quite low. The gun has good balance.

Regarding the 46M. I personally really like the blunt purposeful look of the gun. It does have some plastic fittings, but they integrate well into the gun. The machining is a little on the rougher side. But again that actually works pretty well with its overall look. The 46M's grip is large, blunt, and while sparsely attractive is not terribly comfortable in unmodified state.

The K58 has a beautiful trigger. The trigger on the 46M has a different somewhat more crisp but pulls REALLY well. The trigger mechanism on the 46M seems quieter under dry firing than the K58.

The bore line on the 46M is higher than the K58. The 46M is also decidedly more nose heavy than the more balanced K58. However once you start shooting that sense of nose weight seems to fall away.

I've found both guns to be exceptionally accurate. Neither seems to have a significant edge. I mostly shoot the K58 because it is somewhat more comfortable, and I'm trying to refine my shooting with consistent use of one gun. I take the 46M with me for excursions or impromptu afterwork shooting sessions. Every time I shoot the 46M I get completely surprised as it reminds me how incredibly well it shoots.

If can get ahold of a 103 or a K58 you will love it. If on the other hand you just want to start shooting and keep the costs low, get a 46M. They can be had for less then $350 new. These guns have convinced me of how the russians really know how to make guns that shoot well. If you go the 46M route, you're in for a treat. The only thing I would change would be the grip, I'll either start carving it or get a specialty grip. That modification alone it would make it a the best new AP under $400.

[JoeG]

Hi Joe, glad to see you posting again. I think you are heading in a better direction although the Chameleon was probably not the best sub $500 CO2 pistol in my opinion. The biggest shortcoming of the design was the trigger which is really not in the same league as the other guns suggested. This is essentially a single shot version of the semi auto B96. The ergonomics are also a bit clunky and I am sure you would feel more comfortable with most of the other choices. Did you ever bulk fill it or did you only use the 12 gram powerlets? I never counted shots when I still had mine but I am pretty sure you could have completed a match if you topped up after your sighters. With bulk you also would not have to worry about the seals being a problem. Last word on CO2. If you had found a FWB Model 2 or even a Walther CP1, CP2 or CP3 you probably would not be searching for a replacement just yet. These would be generally selling in the $450-$550 price range In the meantime I agree that the Pardini K58 would be an excellent choice. Good trigger, good feel, nice balance as stated above. They are occasionally available from a bit below $500 to around $600 and are definitely worth it. You're less likely to find a used FWB ssp (they don't come up used that often). The extremely interesting two lever 102 took me quite a while to find and would usually be in the range of $800, the 103 could run to $1000 or more. It's too bad you can't get to sample some of the possible choices, it would certainly make your quest a whole lot easier. I still would recommend the IZH 46M very highly unless you really don't like the front bias balance. The trigger is very nice and if you do a good job carving the grips you can get a good fit. As before, good luck with the search and enjoy the ride. Best regards, Joe G.

[joe1347]

Hi Joe, glad to see you posting again. I think you are heading in a better direction although the Chameleon was probably not the best sub $500 CO2 pistol in my opinion. The biggest shortcoming of the design was the trigger which is really not in the same league as the other guns suggested. This is essentially a single shot version of the semi auto B96. The ergonomics are also a bit clunky and I am sure you would feel more comfortable with most of the other choices. Did you ever bulk fill it or did you only use the 12 gram powerlets? I never counted shots when I still had mine but I am pretty sure you could have completed a match if you topped up after your sighters. With bulk you also would not have to worry about the seals being a problem. Last word on CO2. If you had found a FWB Model 2 or even a Walther CP1, CP2 or CP3 you probably would not be searching for a replacement just yet. These would be generally selling in the $450-$550 price range In the meantime I agree that the Pardini K58 would be an excellent choice. Good trigger, good feel, nice balance as stated above. They are occasionally available from a bit below $500 to around $600 and are definitely worth it. You're less likely to find a used FWB ssp (they don't come up used that often). The extremely interesting two lever 102 took me quite a while to find and would usually be in the range of $800, the 103 could run to $1000 or more. It's too bad you can't get to sample some of the possible choices, it would certainly make your quest a whole lot easier. I still would recommend the IZH 46M very highly unless you really don't like the front bias balance. The trigger is very nice and if you do a good job carving the grips you can get a good fit. As before, good luck with the search and enjoy the ride. Best regards, Joe G.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I was able to find an older Nygord Precision Pardini K58 and after some RWS Chamber Lube (as suggested in another post by Rover) - the K58 appears to now be working perfectly.

I'll post a little more detailed review and comparison to the Aeron - but the most significant initial observation or difference is the low boreline axis on the Pardini as compared to the Aeron - which to me (so far) is the most appealling feature of the Pardini. Granted, I'm certainly a novice in my understanding or appreciation of the Pardini. But I don't think that the trigger is dramatically better than the Aeron - which I thought had a reasonable trigger. Better, yes - but not night and day better. Also, I think the Aeron is a little lighter and less nose heavy than the Pardini - which seems to be giving me a little more front sight movement (on the Pardini) - especially after 10 or 20 shots - than what I was used to on the Aeron.

As for the single stroke pump on the K58 (single stroke pneumatic - SSP). It's certainly not an inconvenience or demanding physically. If anything, I prefer an SSP as compared to a CO2 AP - since I no longer have to worry about how many shots I have left on a CO2 cartridge. However, as mentioned above, I suspect that downside of a SSP is a little more nose heavy pistol - but possibly I'm mistaken and the better PCP pistols have a similar weight and balance as the K58.

Anyway. I've now switched over to the Pardini K58 and will be putting the Aeron up for sale on the buy/sell/trade forum shortly for hopefully another new AP shooter looking for an easy and inexpensive way to try out the sport before moving up to the better gear.

edited to now include a photo: