Foresight Width

The Doctor · Post by **The Doctor** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:48 am

Hi Guys,

I have been using this site as a source for all my 10 m pistol questions and answers. Currently shooting a steyr LP10, with a current PB of 563; I have been pondering something for a while, and I know much of this is probably down to personal preference, but what is the consensus on foresight width. I have used a 5mm, but find that the centre 10s become a bit more elusive (I used a medium sub-6 hold around about the 4-5 mark); I go back to a 4.5mm and my groups tighten up but I get more 'comp wobble'.

Just thought I would throw the question out there to see what other people use.

Thanks

Lee

deadeyedick · Post by **deadeyedick** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:55 am

4.5/5mm depending on sight /arm length I find to be ok.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:56 am

The Doctor wrote:I have used a 5mm, but find that the centre 10s become a bit more elusive

Just a point to remember, one additional outer 10 is worth more than all of your other tens being inners.

I use a 4mm front sight on my 162EI and have raised the rear sight by fitting a 3mm spacer between the sight and its carrier (I aim really low).

edit note:-
I must have been dreaming when I posted "I use a 4mm extra tall front sight on my 162EI (I aim really low)". That, of course, makes no sense. I have amended the original post to show what I actually use.

The Doctor · Post by **The Doctor** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:02 am

David Levene wrote:
The Doctor wrote:I have used a 5mm, but find that the centre 10s become a bit more elusive
Just a point to remember, one additional outer 10 is worth more than all of your other tens being inners.

I use a 4mm extra tall front sight on my 162EI (I aim really low).

Yes, fully agree David, this is something I have been thinking about; I like the security of the 5mm, but the precision of the 4.5mm is something I keep coming back to ....does that make sense? :-)

Lee

Oz · Post by Oz » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:06 am

This is one of those situations where YMMV and is different for everyone; Take into account: The distances from eye to front sight will vary based upon pistol make and model as well as the shooters arm-length as well as eye used, as well as strength of any vision correction as well as distance of vision correction from eye to lens and lens to front sight, etc.

The only rule that I go by is one that I read in Nygord's notes. The front blade should appear to be the same width as the target center. The human brain likes uniformity and can better line things up when sizes are the same.

If you also believe this theory and thinking, use a blade width that appears to YOU to be the same width as the black target center. Then adjust the rear sight to create the space that best suits you.

If you don't buy into that, then it becomes purely personal preference and taste and one size isn't any better than another. LOL... just thought of this... unless deep down, you truly believe that you will score better with a 4.XMM blade. Because if you _REALLY_ believe you will shoot better scores with X, then guess what!? It's true, and you'd better use X :)

Oz

David M · Post by **David M** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:33 pm

I use a foresight width so that in my shooting position the sight picture gives me the appearance of the foresight as the width of the black.
I try to then set my rear sight depth so that the foresight appears as a square in the rear sight and the light bars are about 30-50% of the forsight width on each side. My area aim is then with a similar light bar below the target black.
For each range with different lighting you may have to alter the rear sight width as various light levels will alter the sight image a little.

John Hadjichristou · Post by **John Hadjichristou** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:45 pm

Thanks to David M for giving/sharing with us what he does.
He'd never tell you, but he's got an awesome shooting background.
Remarkably self coached.
Specialising in 10m MAP and 50m pistol.
His medals, trophies, records and awards would take pages to list.
Not hard to see why.
A member of the Australian National team since 1992.
Has represented Australia in four World Cups: 2004 - 2007
One World Championship 2006.
Three Commonwealth Games: 1998, 2002, 2006.
Three Olympic Games: 2000, 2004, 2008.
And what I've noticed is that he only posts on this forum when he's got something interesting, helpful and valuable to say.
Thanks David.

Steve Swartz as Guest · Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:21 am

David M's graphic is about as good as it gets . . .

. . . the same exact picture I use for my "focal point" during autosuggestion/self hypnosis exercises.

The same picture I use as my "focal point" for reciting my mantra before every single lift of the gun.

[Take away the distraction bull and concentrate on FOCUS (physical and mental); picture with the distraction bull as David shows and concentrate on ALIGNment]

luftskytter as guest · Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:12 am

I agree with David M.:

AP target Black = approx. 6 cm
Eye - frontsight distance > 90 cm (I've got narow shoulders, short arms)
Sight width = 10x 6 x 90 /1000 = 5.4 mm or more.
If you've got longer limbs: wider sight post.

Less than 5mm = better precision? Not true!

A buddy of mine recently shot 99/100 with a 7mm frontsight I made for him.......

Steve Swartz as Guest · Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:41 am

Sights "too tight" (narrow front blade, narrow rear notch) =
1. No advantage (no increased "precision" at all)
2. Serious disadvantages (chicken finger, improper focus, etc etc.)

Sights "too wide" (fat front, lots of light on sides) =
1. No disadvantage in terms of alignment or precision
2. Serious advantages in shot process

"D'OH!"

Steve

The Doctor · Post by **The Doctor** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:53 am

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the responses - I find this a really interesting topic, particularly as most air pistols are sold with a 4.5 mm foresight as standard (apart from the morini I think, but I stand to be corrected). Just to clear up a semantic term, when I said 'more precise' I meant it 'felt' more precise - I have been reading over a lot of stuff again, particularly what David M posted (thanks again, that is a great help) and I am sticking with the 5mm for the future ...heck, if its good enough for a 563, I must be doing something right.

Thanks again

Lee

ken4all · Post by **ken4all** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:46 am

What do you use as foresight width for 50m pistol?

Do you apply the same 'rules' as mentioned by David M? I think it would be a too narrow foresight.

David M · Post by **David M** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:42 pm

Same rules, same sight picture, different lens.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:09 am

I'm a total beginner with a 162 E with 5mm blade. Its easier on aim, but it tends to become one with the black of the rearsight when my eyes get tired, because there's little white in between. Gonna try 4.5.

Denis · Post by **Denis** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:19 am

David M wrote:Same rules, same sight picture, different lens.

Interesting David.
Is the different lens because of differing light conditions (probably brighter outdoors)?
If same light, I would have guessed the same lens to have the same focus on the front sight?

ken4all · Post by **ken4all** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:09 am

I think I will have to go to the optician because shooting 10m is no problem. On 50m when I realy focus on the frontsight the targetblack sometimes almost dissapears. I also see that the targetblack looks way smaller than on 10m. If I have to addapt the frontsight to that small black it will be a very narrow frontsight.

What ar you guys using as frontsight for 50m ?

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:05 am

Guest: If I understand your issue correctly, instead of getting a narrower front sight why don't you widen the rear notch?

Ken4all: Agree with David M; and yes, to get the same visual picture you would need a narrower front sight (60%-75% of air sight).

Steve

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:42 am

ken4all wrote:I also see that the targetblack looks way smaller than on 10m.

It is.

The black on a 50m target is 200mm
The black on a 10m target is 59.5mm

Just using simple geometry:-

To make the 50m target look like a 10m target the black would need to be 297.5mm
To make the 10m target look like a 50m target the black would need to be 40mm

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:15 pm

David:

Oh No! Now you've done it!

2 things to consider; the visual size of the target, and the visual size of the front sight (work with me here for a minute please).

- Your exact numbers will vary; but as an example assume your arms are 1 meter long and the lens of your eye is .5m behind the firing line.

- The targets are 10.5 and 50.5 meters away from the lens of your eye

To find the foresight width (in meters) you would apply the following formula:

(width of target/distance to target) = (width of front sight/distance to front sight)

Or, in these two cases:

10m: (.0595/10.5) = (X/1) or X = .005666 meters (5.7 mm)
50m: (.2/50.5) = (X/1) or X = .003964 meters (4.0 mm)

Plug in the actual distances between your eye and the firing line, and your eye and the front sight, and you can calculate the *exact* "geometric size" the front sight needs to be.

The "perceived" width of hte targets (as already noted) will be different from the "geometric" width of the targets. A fuzzier/fatter perceived target at 50 meters would argue for making the front sight wider on the Free Pistol . . .

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:16 pm

Steve, you are probably right with your calculations.

When it comes to selecting font sight widths though I prefer the other method. You know the one, if it looks and feels right then it probably is ;-)

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