ISSF Center Fire. Choosing revolver.

[ruig]

Dear shooting friends,

I have one delema. What revolver to buy to shot CF twice in a year.

I like revolver. I have my own strict criteria and I won't semi-auto Pardini, MG etc.

I have shot only TOZ-49 before. I want something similar (weight, balance).

What I have found near to me:

1) S&W 14, .38 SP, 6", 992gr. Used. 399 Euro.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/Sm ... 252-38.pdf


2) "Alfa-Proj" 3863 Sport, .38 SP, 6", 1355gr!!! New. 570 Euro.
http://www.alfa-proj.cz/viewpic.php?ln= ... pg&model=-

.. I have seen Manurhin, but it must be imported firstly.

I would buy #2, but it's too heavy... I think it will be too hard to use it in rapid stage.

#1. I don't know barrel's status. I don't think that previous owner have shot lead WC only.


I need revoler for 580+. Match revolver.


@S&W owner: Have someone S&W's factory-test grouping of shots? May could You show it?

Any tips will be appreciated.
Thank You in advance.

[David Levene]

Although it is about 15 years since I last shot CF, I have voted "Other" as I shot a FAS 603.

Your poll mentions 570 and your post mentions 580. These are 2 totally different score levels.

I would suggest that a good shooter would easily be able to shoot 570+, given suitable ammunition, with virtually any pistol described as "target quality".

580+ would however be a different matter. This would require the shooter to use a target quality pistol that suits him, and that is an individual choice.

[ruig]

Although it is about 15 years since I last shot CF, I have voted "Other" as I shot a FAS 603.

Your poll mentions 570 and your post mentions 580. These are 2 totally different score levels.

I have reduced level in poll to get move votes and feedback.

[john bickar]

What about 590? :)

[dhurt]

Hi John, You use a GSP, correct? I am pretty envious of this level of shooting, however, in my own defense, I never train centerfire and only shoot a match twice a year. Still, it is a very fun event!! Dwaine Hurt

PS I like my GSP but my fast twist Pardini shows promise.

[Mike M.]

I normally use my Hammerli 280...but I don't claim to shoot the event that well.

Of the revolvers, I would get a S&W Model 14 or 19 - but might consider a Colt Python. If I got a S&W, I'd consider rebarreling with a 1-14 twist barrel, as those seem to stabilize wadcutters better.

[JamesHu]

To start with, I would say the Toz 49 is the best available revolver, if you can get one. The original cartridge works fine, no real need to have them rebuilt to 32SWL
I'm not a great shot, my duelling is poor at present, but I have shot 285-289 precision with one. Duelling is just technique and application...
Still managed 567 and 568 in club shoots.
They can be downloaded to low velocities ~600fps without much loss of accuracy, if any.
The Toz 36 is very close behind.

People do well with Manuhrin 0.32s, David Chapman was using one and has done 580+.

S+W K38s will also shoot well enough, I managed 560 with room for improvement.
They don't group quite as well as a 0.32, they are a but heavier and I find the recoil tiring, but if you're big enough they will work. The trigger is fractionally better than the Toz.
S+W .357 magnums are a little behind again, and generally heavier still.
The Python was just too heavy for me to consider.

The S+W M16 in 0.32 magnum is probably to be avoided, quality was not good, although they can be made to work.

[deadeyedick]

I need revoler for 580+. Match revolver.

WTF !

[ruig]

To start with, I would say the Toz 49 is the best available revolver, if you can get one.

True.
CF WR was established with TOZ.
Team Record too.

Friend of mine has won CISM CF in Ankara 2004 with TOZ49.

Etc.. etc.. etc...

Revolver iself - is the best construction for this event, in my hold opinion. Plug & Play.

[David Levene]

Revolver iself - is the best construction for this event, in my hold opinion. Plug & Play.

That is obviously a matter of personal choice. I would never have shot CF with a revolver. The trigger just did not suit my style of taking up the first stage at the ready position leaving just 300-400g to deal with in the rapid stage.

Don't get the idea that revolvers are trouble free. I well remember shooting next to someone using a K38. We can only presume that it went past the cylinder stop by a few mm. It certainly looked like the bullet had hit just the right hand side of the barrel before "automatically dismantling" a large part of the gun.

[R.M.]

If you're only going to shoot it twice a year, I'd go with a K38. You''l have less invested, ammo is cheap and easy to find compared to some of the others, ( and it can be SWC, doesn't have to be full WC).
Personally I shoot a GSP .32 most of the time, but still keep a .38 or three just because.

[Reinhamre]

I would suggest an old S&W K14-1 or later and a Nill grip
Remember that trigger weight is 1000 gram now! It does matter when it comes to rapid stage. The advantage for a pistol vs. revolver in rapid fire has been less obvious.

Kent

[David Levene]

Remember that trigger weight is 1000 gram now! It does matter when it comes to rapid stage. The advantage for a pistol vs. revolver in rapid fire has been less obvious.

Has anybody ever wondered why women rarely, if ever, use revolvers for 25m Pistol at World level.

[Isabel1130]

Remember that trigger weight is 1000 gram now! It does matter when it comes to rapid stage. The advantage for a pistol vs. revolver in rapid fire has been less obvious.

Has anybody ever wondered why women rarely, if ever, use revolvers for 25m Pistol at World level.

Women generally have smaller hands. It is difficult for me to cock a revolver to shoot single action amd still maintain a consistant grip on the gun. Just one extra thing to worry about and one extra step that I don't need. With so many great semi auto .22s available for for sport pistol, why on earth would I chose a revolver? Isabel

[David Levene]

It is difficult for me to cock a revolver to shoot single action amd still maintain a consistant grip on the gun. Just one extra thing to worry about and one extra step that I don't need.

I'm not questioning you at all Isabel, but I am interested. Which hand were you trying to cock the pistol with, shooting or non-shooting.

I cannot remember ever seeing a top level ISSF CF shooter cocking a revolver with their shooting hand.

[Isabel1130]

David, in bullseye, and the CMP matches touching the gun with your free hand during the course of fire will void any alabi in sustained fire. Therefore if you are shooting a revolver, you must either shoot double action or cock the revolver with your firing hand. I realized after your post that the rules are different in ISSF however, especially in Duel, I would not want to have to reach over to cock the revolver with my off hand. It would just be too different from what I normally do in sustained fire in the other events that I shoot and there does not seem to be any advantage in dedicating a revolver to women's sport pistol. In addition I shoot left handed and most revolvers have the cylinder release on the left side of the gun so loading it and unloading it is awkward for me. I can see some advantages to a revolver as a Center Fire gun but since women don't shoot Center fire in ISSF, it doesn't really matter. Isabel

[David Levene]

I can see some advantages to a revolver as a Center Fire gun but since women don't shoot Center fire in ISSF, it doesn't really matter.

Thanks Isabel, that was really the basis of my original question.

As the CF trigger weight is now down to 1000g the only differences between 25m (Sport) Pistol and CF Pistol are the size of the bang and the size of the resulting hole.

I am just interested why, if some people see the revolver as the better choice for CF, it is so rarely seen in 25m (Sport) matches.

[JamesHu]

I see revolvers as better for CF for a number of reasons.

You don't have to go looking for your brass.
A 0.32 size case being ejected and bouncing around can be a lot more distracting than a .22 case.
You can tune your load for accuracy and/or comfort, and not worry about cycling reliability.
You don't need to worry about wear, springs relaxing, buffers needing replacement and other maintenance to anything like the same extent.
Revolvers tend not to malfunction. I don't know why 0.32 autos all use a rimmed full wadcutter cartridge like 32SWL, it woudln't have been my pick.
Historically probably CF autos which don't use low powered straight-blowback actions need to be accurised to shoot as well as an out of the box revolver.



As for why .22 revolvers haven't been used for sport pistol.
They don't seem to be as accurate as autos, .22 doesn't seem to work all that well in revolvers.
There have been many target capable autos around for many years, market inertia.
There is no need to retain .22 brass, and enough commercially available .22 ammo around which functions reliably that people haven't needed to retreat to revolvers to guarantee an alibi-free match.

[Guest]

If memory serves me well, the Walther GSP / Expert has a brass catcher. Maybe other CF pistols have it?

The problem I see with revolvers is that very few people know how to work on them in case something goes wrong. On the other hand, changing springs in a pistol is something the average Joe can do himself. Also, I experience more body movement with a revolver when cocking the hammer with my non-shooting hand [this is probably my fault...].

[john bickar]

Hi John, You use a GSP, correct? I am pretty envious of this level of shooting, however, in my own defense, I never train centerfire and only shoot a match twice a year. Still, it is a very fun event!! Dwaine Hurt

PS I like my GSP but my fast twist Pardini shows promise.

Yep, Walther GSP. I had Dave Wilson make me a fast twist (1 in 14) barrel earlier this year that I've been using with some success for bullseye at 50 yards.