Degree of Lean used by AP/FP shooters

[edster99]

Hi all

I keep reading bits of the Yur'yev book and one thing that is currently filling my brain is the section on stance. For those of you who dont have it the relevant section is attached. Which do you use? Basically upright, or deliberately leaning back, more than the minimum that you have to?

[RobStubbs]

The book is more than a few years old and training techniques have changed. Leaning back like that will pretty much guarantee back problems and I can't see it offering more support or stability.

Rob.

[edster99]

I agree with the potential back problems.

It's not supposed to give more support, but the theory (backed up with included research) is that in that pose, the deltoid and supporting shoulder muscles are longer, and this makes them more effective at performing static work. The result being that they twitch less, and gives you a more controlled hold.

I take it that you're voting for a 'normal' stance. I cant say that I have seen anyone including myself using anything else.

Training techniques have changed, but have they improved? After all, what were FP scores in the 70's? 72 Olympics - 567, 76 Olympics - 573. 2008 Olympics - 565. Unless the targets have changed (possible, I dont know), then it doesnt look like we have come a long way.

I dont know. I'm just wondering out loud.

[Steve Swartz]

1. The poll asks if I "deliberately" leaned back; I answered "Yes" even though the real answer is "No" but I thought "Yes" answered the question that I thought the asker was asking better . . . I lean back a lot- but I don't lean back "deliberately." I am a skinny body type with very long arms. Leaning back a lot is not "deliberate;" it is "natural" for my body type.

2. I don't *deliberately* lean back HOWEVER your body will *naturally* lean back in order to maintain a balanced stance (which Yur'Yev discusses in detail). The point is you are putting a mass out on the end of a lever arm 3+ feet away from yoiur body. Something has to compensate in order to maintain a comfortable, low-muscle-involvement stance.

3. How have the analyses of Yur'Yev and the soviet sports medicine professionals been contradicted by "new knowledge?" That comment got me curious.

4. Most importatnly perhpas- you must realize that many of the digrams/pictures in the book are "exaggerated for emphasis." Yur'Yev points this out a couple of times explicitly in the book. When the poses/diagrams *aren't* exaggerated (like the foot position charts) it actually merits special mention.

What I like most about Yur'Yevs book is that he explains the reasons *why* certain technique elements are recommended, based on the trade-offs involved and the science behind them. Of course, I don't hold him or the soviet sports medicine folks responsible for the misinterpretations of others.

Again, my personal opinion only. It is a personality flaw of mine that I tend to over-value reality based, scientific approaches to understanding the "why and hows" and tend to under-value the homespun folklore and war stories that seem to abound in our sport. Yeah, I know, this can come off sounding really arrogant, condescending, etc. etc. and I do actually regret that side of it. Sounding like you think you know what you are talking about (*especially* if you actually do) can turn a lot of people off.

But "there I go again . . . "

Steve

[edster99]

Hey Steve

I might roll my eyes occasioanlly, but I know you mean well. More fool me for putting up a question open to misinterpretation. Perhaps I should have said ' Do you add additional rearward lean above the minimum necessary (to stop you falling on your face)?' which perhaps covers point 2. Yes, I understand that.
3 - Interests me too
4 - I do realise he exaggerates for emphasis, but in that diagram he includes specific angular measurements (in a range, but gives an idea of the additional change in angle). I guess I am asking - Fig 142(i), or fig 143(b) ? They are pictures, factual images (!), of the same shooter in different postions.

[luftskytter]

Yes I deliberately lean back with my upper body as far as my stocky old carcass allows without feeling undue strain.
I counteract this by moving my hips towards the target to get a slightly forward weight distribution between my feet.

The main purpose is to "point naturally" at the target with least effort by slightly rasing my right shoulder. Raising the shoulder from a straight stance is not a relaxed position for me, nor is raising the arm with a low shoulder. .

I used to stand upright, but changed in an attempt to adapt the methods used by air rifle shooters to create a stable shooting platform. But I was also curious to try it out because I have a very talented shooting buddy (former national AP champion) who shoots with an extreme backlean. I've talked a lot with him about this AFTER I tried it myself, and we totally agree about these ideas

I'm not a very good shot myself, but I believe that I have improved my score noticeably through this change of style. I intend to stick with this unless it causes problems. For the time being I feel it is actually beneficial to my back which has been quite troublesome at times.
Yes this is about asymmetry: leaning back the other way while shooting an airrifle is no good for my back, though I occasionally do it.......

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

Edster:

Yeah- I get a lot of "eye rolling" in person too!

The amount of "lean" and types of lean (straight lean or bend at waist) can be observed strolling down the line and observing the best shooters. Some don't seem to have much lean at all . . . my anecdotal observation seems to find shorter, stockier shooters tend to lean less while skinny/taller tend to lean more. And those who lean a lot are facing away from target; those who lean less are facing target more. This matches with what Yur'Yev and his team describes.

However, there is a lot of variation among the best shooters.

Luffskyter is right on- to determine the amount of lean that is "best" for you, you need to figure out what the desired objective is and how "lean" fits into your stance as a whole.

Your stance/grip/foot position etc. creates your "shooting platform" for shot delivery.

This platform must be
1. Comfortable
2. Repeatable
3. Stable

And there are trade-offs among those three . . . excessive lean may be more stable but less comfortable; the most comfortable amount of lean may not be repeatable etc. based on how you hold your feet, how you are gripping the gun, how you address the target, etc.

For me (your mileage may vary), as my address to the target moves more "face on," the amount of lean I need to be stable, comfortable, and repeatable decreases. Ditto for toe in-toe out; as my toes point away from each other I need less lean. As my shoulder rotates to the left (I'm right handed) the amount of lean decreases. Also, the amount of lean from the legs vs. lean from the pelvis changes as well.

Anyhow

One thing Yur'Yev does that I *disagree* with is he is too "prescriptive" at times ("Do it this way because it is best") but this is always tempered by the explanation behind it.

You jsut have to understand what he is saying fully in order to make modifications that are most appropriate *for you* based obn your individual characteristics.

If you simply "Do it Yur'Yevs Way" without understanding the issues and trade-offs, you can end up misinterpreting his advice and end up all SNAFU on your technique.

His book is less a "How To" than it is a "Why" experience.

[edster99]

Steve

sometimes you confuse me with the implications that I should draw from what you say.
I could take your conclusion (after 'anyhow') to mean

1 - I dont understand what he's saying
2 - I'm (going to be) blindly following his advice based on 1)

I hope thats not the impression I have put across, and that I have misinterpreted you.

regds

Ed

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

Ed:

Not at all! I was referring to numerous "flame wars" I have been involved in over the years . . . in this forum (and others).

The caution was about a common mistake *a lot* of us (me included!) make regarding any one of several training books.

Frequently I have found myself reading some technique discussed and immediatley think "Yeah! That applies to me!" and go out and try something without really understanding *why* that particular technique element would work in some circumstances (but not others).

Inevitably, frustration sets in as 1. I realize I have wasted a bunch of time on somethink that wasn't meant for my situation; and 2. I may have messed up something that shouldn't have been messed with.

So, my current philosophy (that I feel quite free to share with others apparently) is that I should study the *processes* of how proper technique is supposed to work (and the whys behind it) instead of just trying to stumble across the "magic combination" of elements somewaht arbitrarily.

Steve

[david alaways]

I have only been shooting a few years and in that time have only seen 2 leaners. One is perhaps the best Bulleye shooter of all time. His lean is mind boggleing. The other shooter (who posts on TT) is one of the best A.P. shooters I know (perhaps the best on TT). He seems to lean but it could just be the way he holds his head. (Russ) They just did a study at the OTC on stance. If I recall correctly,feet spread 18 inches or shoulder length was best .They also studied footwear. Tennis shoes/ running shoes where the worse. Shooting shoes or barefeet where the best. For me it was Barefeet. NOTE: In my first competition at the OTC I shot in my socks. The judges had a meeting the next day because someone bitched about it(maybe my feet stunk) When I came onto the range the next day they where all laughing and called me over to show me the rulebook. I found out its ok to shoot in my socks . At another range I shot in my socks and they too had a meeting . So at our state champions this year I was told they decided I cannot shoot in my socks. (it depends on the range rules) So i shoot in my running shoes and won my first state championship. ( I was thinking about my shoes more than shooting and that might have helped).

[2650 Plus]

Hows the saying go ? something about those that can do, ect. And after they can't they write about it. Personally ,I'd rather listen to Blankenship or Benner or Zins or TD Smith talk about how to shoot a ten and then go out and try to duplicate what they have described. I under stand that Steve has cranked off a considerable number of tens also but I never got to shoot against him and was unaware of the skill level at which he performed. I accept the fact that each of us believe we have found the secret of how to perform that amazing feat of shooting ten after ten .[ I plead guilty] But I also recognize that each of us may accomplish the act in different ways. I have no idea about how you do the trick so I only post what is true for me. I hope I dont sound arrogent about it, but If another shooter can use some small part of what I have posted and have success at this frustrating game we work at perfecting then The hours I've spent on the forum will be well spent. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[edster99]

Without wanting to sound too contradictory Bill, YurYev did set national records and was part of at least one world record setting team, so he could 'do' before he set about teaching. I appreciate what you have put up here, I am fully in agreement that concentrating on the postiive is the way forward!

[Tom Amlie]

Just as an observation, the perennial leader of our local indoor bullseye league (avg. 587.5 this season) has his feet almost straight ahead towards the target and hunches his shoulders and head forward rather than leans back. Leaning back a little does shift your center of gravity over your feet, but there will always be exceptions.

[edster99]

I'm guessing bullseye is centre-fire based? Not quite the same story if you have significant recoil to overcome, compared to AP/FP

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

David:

I guess we have different definitions of what "lean" is . . . while you say you have only seen two shooters who lean, I would say the opposite- that I have only seen one or two who *don't* "lean." So obviously our threshold of what we would say is a "lean" is very different.

As to the notion that we should blindly mimic other shooters techniques . . . doesn't that contradict the idea that we should find what works best for us as an individual?

I mean, unless you are an exact physical and mental twin of Steve Reiter or Ragnar Skannaker (two poloar opposites in terms of physical characteristics and temperment), we shouldn't automatically assume tha "the way Reiter does it" *or* "the way Skannaker does it" is automatically the *best way* for us to do it . . .

Maybe Steve Reiter "does it" his way is because he is *different* from other shooters . . . not because he is the *same* as other shooters . . .


To achieve the same results as a great shooter, it is necessary not to adopt his or her techniques. It is instead necessary to adopt the techniques that result in the same outcomes.

Steve Swartz

[Gwhite]

I took Brian Zin's clinic about a year & a half ago. I normally shoot with a fairly neutral stance, not leaning a lot one way or another. He strongly suggested that I should lean more forward, with more weight on my front foot. The theory is that it allows a quicker, more stable recovery in sustained fire. When I can overcome decades of habit, it does help. However, that advantage is of questionable utility if ALL you shoot is precision stages like air or free pistol.

I think a lot of it also depends on your body type/shape. In watching a number of good shooters over the years in NRA conventional (i.e. mixed slow & sustained fire) matches, I've noticed that taller, thinner shooters tend to lean more forward than short stocky shooters. I've never seen any good shooters who lean back the way Yur Yev's book shows, but these folks aren't shooting free or air. Shooters in the US don't tend to specialize, and if they shoot sustained fire events (which almost all of them do), they probably don't want to shoot with entirely different stances for different events. I don't recall seeing anyone leaning back in any of the free & air pistol matches I've been to, although I also don't recall observing anyone leaning forward as much as I'm used to seeing in sustained fire events.

[david alaways]

Steve : My point exactly ! Maybe I should have said "lean that was really noticeable" My point in my post was " you can lean and be a great shooter or like most not lean and be a great shooter" Great shooters come in all colors ,shapes, sizes, and leans! My #1 training tip and the first I ever got " DO WHAT FEELS NATURAL " Im going to write a book on shooting and put in all I have learned that is important enough to pass on to new shooters . Here it is :( Practice dry firing (learned that from Steve S.) Train on sight alinment and trigger pull. Just do what feels natural . and buy a great pistol! THE END ) P.S. if u can get a motavating coach at least once! the end again!..... Now that I wrote that I guess im done with Targettalk because thats all I know besides my silly stories. By the way on a personal note I just became a father in law . I guess someday I will be shooting in the grandpa class!..........David

[pbrejsa]

Can you see

http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli2.shtml

or better pics

http://www.shooting-ua.com/books/book_5.htm