Guys,
I have a nearly new Pardini SP1 RF pistol that has only about 200 rounds through it. It is set up as a single stage trigger, and everything had been going fine until the last time I fired it. It doubled on me once, so now I've joined the "Pardini doubling club". :-(
For some background, I've been shooting semi-autos (Colt, Browning, Ruger, Glock, S&W, Walther, and even mechanical trigger Pardini) for over 30 years and *never* had one of them double. And, this trigger is adjusted as recommended by the owners manual (as sparse as it is).
The only solution offered by the US rep is to send it to them for adjustment. But, my preference is to fix the problem myself. I don't think the problem is excess crud anywhere because the number of fired rounds is so small.
Has anyone solved the issue of how to set up this pistol so the doubling issue becomes a non-issue?
Stan
Pardini SP1 RF doubling solution?
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Sorry to hear you have this problem too. I didn't know there was a club for it though :-o
I have had my SP1's electronics module replaced 2 or 3 times by the Pardini guys at the Munich World Cup. And the last time I thought they really fixed it. Because I was unable to reproduce the doubling problem even when trying. However, recently I needed to change the details of my trigger set up (I wanted a longer softer first stage). Unfortunately, after I made my adjustments, once again the doubling problem returned.
To me, the problem is you are pressing on a micro switch that fires the solenoid, so regardless of how you adjust your trigger set up, at some point in time, if you pull the trigger slowly enough, you will be sitting right on the edge of that micro switch between on and off. And any tiny bit more pressure will set it off. So unless you totally release the trigger as soon as the shot breaks, but most shooters don't do this I think. As such, there is always going to be a real danger of the recoil vibrations setting off the next shot in that fraction of a second after the shot breaks. The only way I see to resolve this is to electronically limit the rate at which the solenoid will fire. For example, on the Morini air pistol, the solenoid just will not fire that fast. The downside of this of course is if you are shooting rapid fire, then obviously you can't have this speed limiter.
I love the Pardini guys, and they've always provided awesome service, but I've given up on my SP1. It is an awesome gun to dry fire with at home, but I won't use it in a competition because I don't need the stress of worrying about the gun double firing.
-trinity
I have had my SP1's electronics module replaced 2 or 3 times by the Pardini guys at the Munich World Cup. And the last time I thought they really fixed it. Because I was unable to reproduce the doubling problem even when trying. However, recently I needed to change the details of my trigger set up (I wanted a longer softer first stage). Unfortunately, after I made my adjustments, once again the doubling problem returned.
To me, the problem is you are pressing on a micro switch that fires the solenoid, so regardless of how you adjust your trigger set up, at some point in time, if you pull the trigger slowly enough, you will be sitting right on the edge of that micro switch between on and off. And any tiny bit more pressure will set it off. So unless you totally release the trigger as soon as the shot breaks, but most shooters don't do this I think. As such, there is always going to be a real danger of the recoil vibrations setting off the next shot in that fraction of a second after the shot breaks. The only way I see to resolve this is to electronically limit the rate at which the solenoid will fire. For example, on the Morini air pistol, the solenoid just will not fire that fast. The downside of this of course is if you are shooting rapid fire, then obviously you can't have this speed limiter.
I love the Pardini guys, and they've always provided awesome service, but I've given up on my SP1. It is an awesome gun to dry fire with at home, but I won't use it in a competition because I don't need the stress of worrying about the gun double firing.
-trinity
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I am also one of the founding members of the "doubling club."
Though my electrical engineering kung fu is old, the solution seems simple enough. Put an interrupt in the firing circuit that prevents discharge faster than every few tenths of a second or so. A user adjustable delay would be just the ticket to customize to a specific shooter or caliber. (Should they decide to put the new e-trigger in the HP.)
I don't see a need to ever fire shots faster than that, and it would allow the recoil vibrations to subside before "arming" the circuit again.
Anyone have a contact with Pardini that might listen?
Keith
Though my electrical engineering kung fu is old, the solution seems simple enough. Put an interrupt in the firing circuit that prevents discharge faster than every few tenths of a second or so. A user adjustable delay would be just the ticket to customize to a specific shooter or caliber. (Should they decide to put the new e-trigger in the HP.)
I don't see a need to ever fire shots faster than that, and it would allow the recoil vibrations to subside before "arming" the circuit again.
Anyone have a contact with Pardini that might listen?
Keith
Hi Keith,K5Tangos wrote:I am also one of the founding members of the "doubling club."
Though my electrical engineering kung fu is old, the solution seems simple enough. Put an interrupt in the firing circuit that prevents discharge faster than every few tenths of a second or so. A user adjustable delay would be just the ticket to customize to a specific shooter or caliber. (Should they decide to put the new e-trigger in the HP.)
I don't see a need to ever fire shots faster than that, and it would allow the recoil vibrations to subside before "arming" the circuit again.
Anyone have a contact with Pardini that might listen?
Keith
They've already done an e-job on the HP. It's called the HPE, and I have one. I've only done load development with it, so it's only had about 150 rounds through it. But, it has not doubled (yet), and the trigger is set up the same as the SP1 RF. The weight, though, is still at 1360 grams since I haven't reduced it to 1000 grams yet.
Stan
I cured the SP1 doubling absolutely by sending it back and getting a mechanical one.
Trinity, I think your description of how the double happens is spot on. I only ever had double when shooting slowly and I would say that is because I was 'hovering' around the release point of the micro switch. Under recoil the pistol moves back a little in the hand just enough to re-set the switch and then as the slide comes home it nudges the pistol forward slightly (just enough) to re press the switch. During RF the doubles didn't happen, just the total stop that could only be fixed by switching it off and on again.
I did have the other exciting version of the double, that is one shot when pulling the trigger followed by another upon reslease of the trigger.
But anyway, 4 new modules from the factory didn't help so I went back to a mechanical trigger and don't regret it at all. The SP is a fine pistol to shoot and very reliable.
Trinity, I think your description of how the double happens is spot on. I only ever had double when shooting slowly and I would say that is because I was 'hovering' around the release point of the micro switch. Under recoil the pistol moves back a little in the hand just enough to re-set the switch and then as the slide comes home it nudges the pistol forward slightly (just enough) to re press the switch. During RF the doubles didn't happen, just the total stop that could only be fixed by switching it off and on again.
I did have the other exciting version of the double, that is one shot when pulling the trigger followed by another upon reslease of the trigger.
But anyway, 4 new modules from the factory didn't help so I went back to a mechanical trigger and don't regret it at all. The SP is a fine pistol to shoot and very reliable.
That microswitch has been crap since the early GPE days. I don't understand why Pardini insists on its solution, the whole setup is inferior to the Morini e-trigger in almost every aspect. In the GPE, we killed the problem by replacing the microswitch with one that cost 5 times as much - 40 cents instead of 8... that brought a lot, and the rest was micro-turn-adjustment of the triggerstop, and keeping the 1st stage weight down to minimize the "twittering" on the switch. From what I've seen of a friend's SP1, not much has changed since then... PS: For the Morini, there are boards with a .5 sec cutout, but that's too long for RF. I've never seen Pardini bring up something like that, but then they are one of those companies that never listen to the "normal" customer...
Well, no microswitch or any mechanical switch will make a unique transition from open to close or the reverse. If you look what happens with an oscilloscope, you will see that it always toggles between the open and close states (or the reverse) before it stabilize to one of the two states.
This is a well known issue for all people developing equipment with buttons or keyboards. Behind the actual switch there is always a piece of algorithm (implemented in HW or SW) that does what is called "debouncing", i.e. suppressing the toggle between open and close or the reverse to produce a single, clean transition.
The parameters of this "debouncing" depends of the actual technology used for the switch (it can be pure electric contact, or opto-electronic, or capacitive... a lot of technologies are used/have been tried) and of the application, i.e. what is the maximum frequency allowed to switch between open and close, exemple: a keyboard, some people can type very fast => too slow filtering out of bouncing will be a problem but not enough will also cause problems. Rapid fire is similar.
Another problem of so called "electronic trigger" is that they are not electronic triggers but electro-mechanical devices, i.e. a combination of electronic and mechanics. Any engineer will tell you that this is the worst "shit" to design, making such a thing reliable is quite difficult. For a firearm where there is dirst, powder residue, lead residue, oil, strong vibration and shock... it is even worse. These devices are also subject to wear, I laught when I see the leaflet of the new LP10E that states "no wear", this is pure marketing bullshit: the mechanical parts of it = switch and solenoid are subject to wear just like a mechanical trigger.
This is a well known issue for all people developing equipment with buttons or keyboards. Behind the actual switch there is always a piece of algorithm (implemented in HW or SW) that does what is called "debouncing", i.e. suppressing the toggle between open and close or the reverse to produce a single, clean transition.
The parameters of this "debouncing" depends of the actual technology used for the switch (it can be pure electric contact, or opto-electronic, or capacitive... a lot of technologies are used/have been tried) and of the application, i.e. what is the maximum frequency allowed to switch between open and close, exemple: a keyboard, some people can type very fast => too slow filtering out of bouncing will be a problem but not enough will also cause problems. Rapid fire is similar.
Another problem of so called "electronic trigger" is that they are not electronic triggers but electro-mechanical devices, i.e. a combination of electronic and mechanics. Any engineer will tell you that this is the worst "shit" to design, making such a thing reliable is quite difficult. For a firearm where there is dirst, powder residue, lead residue, oil, strong vibration and shock... it is even worse. These devices are also subject to wear, I laught when I see the leaflet of the new LP10E that states "no wear", this is pure marketing bullshit: the mechanical parts of it = switch and solenoid are subject to wear just like a mechanical trigger.
Tycho,Tycho wrote:That microswitch has been crap since the early GPE days. I don't understand why Pardini insists on its solution, the whole setup is inferior to the Morini e-trigger in almost every aspect. In the GPE, we killed the problem by replacing the microswitch with one that cost 5 times as much - 40 cents instead of 8... that brought a lot, and the rest was micro-turn-adjustment of the triggerstop, and keeping the 1st stage weight down to minimize the "twittering" on the switch.
Do you know of anyone who has replaced the microswitch on either the SP1 RF or the HPE? If so, did it solve the problem?
Stan
What they should build is a pair of optical switches, where the first closes at the beginning of the first stage, and the second closes at the end of the second stage. Both must be closed to fire, and both must be open to reset. Now you have some hysteresis (just like a mechanical trigger) and you can fire as fast as you like. If you don't let the trigger completely reset, no bang.
You heard it here first, I'm filing my patent application tomorrow.
Steve.
You heard it here first, I'm filing my patent application tomorrow.
Steve.
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Anders Turebrand
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:27 pm
- Location: Stockholm Sweden
My SP1 RF worked flawlessly until a month ago when I took the electronics module out for cleaning after which I had to adjust the trigger for second stage position.
After this it started doubling, in a local rapid fire stage (sport/centerfire) competition it doubled six times in two 30 shot matches...
I was, to say the least, not pleased.
Went home and tore it apart again, found that the two halves of the microswitch were not put together properly, possibly allowing for a slightly floating second stage engagement point and also (maybe) allowing the switch to reset in recoil, my solution to that was to tie it together with sewing thread which I then securered with glue.
After that I have had no more doubling in about 1000-1100 rounds though I have tried to provoke one out of the pistol by holding it extremely loose and extremely hard and by working the trigger very carefully as well as very abruptly.
I should say that the German RFP specialists in Wiesbaden this weekend gave my solution no credit, in their minds it is simply a setup issue.
/Anders
After this it started doubling, in a local rapid fire stage (sport/centerfire) competition it doubled six times in two 30 shot matches...
I was, to say the least, not pleased.
Went home and tore it apart again, found that the two halves of the microswitch were not put together properly, possibly allowing for a slightly floating second stage engagement point and also (maybe) allowing the switch to reset in recoil, my solution to that was to tie it together with sewing thread which I then securered with glue.
After that I have had no more doubling in about 1000-1100 rounds though I have tried to provoke one out of the pistol by holding it extremely loose and extremely hard and by working the trigger very carefully as well as very abruptly.
I should say that the German RFP specialists in Wiesbaden this weekend gave my solution no credit, in their minds it is simply a setup issue.
/Anders
Guys,
Thanks for all of the replies, and I hope to hear even more.
I think it might be a good idea to get a rough idea of how often SP1 and HPE owners are running into this problem. I'd like to see a list of owners (screen names would be sufficient), the model(s) owned, and a status of either having this problem or not having this problem. If the percentage of owners having the problem is large, then I think there are steps that could be taken to get some attention.
What do you guys think?
Stan
Thanks for all of the replies, and I hope to hear even more.
I think it might be a good idea to get a rough idea of how often SP1 and HPE owners are running into this problem. I'd like to see a list of owners (screen names would be sufficient), the model(s) owned, and a status of either having this problem or not having this problem. If the percentage of owners having the problem is large, then I think there are steps that could be taken to get some attention.
What do you guys think?
Stan
What they SHOULD have done was to use the solution Ralf Schumann had in his .22 short GPS(E) - take the Morini trigger and put it into a Pardini. That works perfectly well, and the Morini trigger has several advantages over the Pardini solution - i.e. it's smaller, uses less parts, easier adjustable, doesn't need a trigger stop because it fires when the switch opens, instead of the other way round...
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Tycho,Tycho wrote:What they SHOULD have done was to use the solution Ralf Schumann had in his .22 short GPS(E) - take the Morini trigger and put it into a Pardini. That works perfectly well, and the Morini trigger has several advantages over the Pardini solution - i.e. it's smaller, uses less parts, easier adjustable, doesn't need a trigger stop because it fires when the switch opens, instead of the other way round...
Do you know if anyone has tried this with the SP1 or HPE?
Stan
Fred,Fred Mannis wrote:This discussion convinces me that the Steyr LP10E will not be on my wish list
I wouldn't let the Pardini thing influence a decision on the LP10E. I have a Morini 162EI that has performed flawlessly. My guess is the LP10E will be a similar performer, but time will tell. It might be a situation where you let the early buyers wring it out before you go in that direction.
Stan
Not that I have heard of someone trying it - in the good old times, I tried to convince just about every gunsmith I know of trying to build that, and none of them would touch it. From what I heard, the first Pardini GPE's in the late 90s or early 00s were built by Pardini with Morini components, so they should be able to help you out there... :-P
I spent some time yesterday with my SP1 RF and HPE to see if I could make them double during dry fire. Sure enough, both will do it, and here's what I found.
If you get the slightest little trigger finger wiggle, immediately after causing the trigger to activate, it will activate again. It seems that while your finger is "in the neighborhood" of the release point, it will release another shot. So, it could be that anything less than a clean press-and-release could cause another shot to be fired. I suppose felt recoil could also cause another wiggle, especially with the HPE. But, the HPE has been good so far. Keep in mind that these two pistols are set up single-stage with no involvement of the overtravel screw.
One of the things I am going to try is setting the overtravel screw so it comes into play and gives my finger a place to stop and hold (yeah, I know, that kills one of the benefits of an electonic trigger but right now reliability is bigger problem). My theory is by providing a positive stop, perhaps the tendency to wiggle will go away and, with it, the unwanted shots.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Stan
If you get the slightest little trigger finger wiggle, immediately after causing the trigger to activate, it will activate again. It seems that while your finger is "in the neighborhood" of the release point, it will release another shot. So, it could be that anything less than a clean press-and-release could cause another shot to be fired. I suppose felt recoil could also cause another wiggle, especially with the HPE. But, the HPE has been good so far. Keep in mind that these two pistols are set up single-stage with no involvement of the overtravel screw.
One of the things I am going to try is setting the overtravel screw so it comes into play and gives my finger a place to stop and hold (yeah, I know, that kills one of the benefits of an electonic trigger but right now reliability is bigger problem). My theory is by providing a positive stop, perhaps the tendency to wiggle will go away and, with it, the unwanted shots.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Stan
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_trinity_