Ten Year Old Cylinder Rule

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:38 am

I think this has pretty large impacts for our distributors as well.

Last year I purchased a new cylinder for an Anschutz air rifle and was able to get the replacement immediately .... I went out and checked the date on that cylinder and it was already 3 years old.

As a consumer, if I ordered a new cylinder, and had to comply with the 10 year rule, I would want one that was within a month or so of manufacture ... not a 3 year old one.

This means distributors would be less willing to stock these types of (am I making up a word here?) "expirable" parts .... which of course means you will get ready for a match that will be checking these parts, notice yours is out of date and cannot get a replacement fo 3-4 (or more) weeks

My POV .... it is up to the shooter to certify that their gun is safe .... the entire mechanical assembly, not just a gas cylinder.

I think, for example, that Anschutz did a good job of getting the word out on the small lots of cylinders that were a potential problem. Why is ISSF freaking when the manufacturer did the right thing? Save us from bureaucrats who seem to feel a need to raise their own importance.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:02 pm

jhmartin wrote:Why is ISSF freaking when the manufacturer did the right thing?

They aren't.

Rule 6.2.2.8
"It is the shooter’s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date."

Does that sound unreasonable to you. It sounds pretty reasonable and sensible to me.

It is the organisation that represents most of the German and Austrian manufacturers that has said that their cylinders must not be used after 10 years. Don't blame the ISSF for that.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:12 pm

If it is the shooter' responsibility, then why are ISSF officials checking cylinder dates. Do they completely tear down pistols and rifles to make sure all are working properly ..... no.

If it is the shooter responsibility, then it is, and leave it at that.
If the officials have a list of recalled cylinders .... OK check that, but beyond is silly

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:50 pm

jhmartin wrote:If it is the shooter' responsibility, then why are ISSF officials checking cylinder dates. Do they completely tear down pistols and rifles to make sure all are working properly ..... no.

As far as I know there has only been one ISSF supervised meeting under the new rules, the European Air Championships a few weeks ago. As I previously posted, they didn't check cylinder dates there.

The only match that I know of where dates have been checked is the Munich Airgun meeting in January. I believe that German law may have influenced that decision. For that reason I would also expect the dates to be checked at the Dortmund meeting next week.

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:02 pm

Safety and reasonableness, I think those are the same reasons they used to take away your handguns too. It might be an idea to question these things rather than just accept them with such glee and vigor.

They are probably checking the cylinders to see if they can find the over 30% of the Anschutz cylinders that they have yet to be returned. Maybe rather they should put a little more effort in getting the ones back than instead of coming up with ways to pad their bottom line. Their recall has been very lack luster.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:27 pm

Richard H wrote:Safety and reasonableness, I think those are the same reasons they used to take away your handguns too. It might be an idea to question these things rather than just accept them with such glee and vigor.

I'm not sure which part of the ISSF rule you aren't happy with Richard. Can you please clarify.

Richard H wrote:They are probably checking the cylinders to see if they can find the over 30% of the Anschutz cylinders that they have yet to be returned.

Who's checking the cylinders Richard. AFAIK (at the moment) it's only officials at matches in Germany, I am told in accordance with German law.

edit note: Reading back through previous posts on this thread I see one from Scott saying it is not actually a Geman law, it is a rule imposed by the DSB (a German shooting organisation). None the less, it still obviously only applies in Germany.

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:23 pm

Actually I'm unhappy with the crock of crap that the manufactures are feeding, the ISSF has bought, and the English and Australians just think is the greatest thing since sliced white bread.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:45 pm

Richard H wrote:....... and the English and Australians just think is the greatest thing since sliced white bread.

I don't know where you get that idea from.

There may be the odd person who agrees with the new manufacturers' time limits but they are certainly not limited to the English or Australians.

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:55 pm

David Levene wrote:
Richard H wrote:....... and the English and Australians just think is the greatest thing since sliced white bread.
I don't know where you get that idea from.

There may be the odd person who agrees with the new manufacturers' time limits but they are certainly not limited to the English or Australians.

It seemed that was the general tone, but this thread's so long I could be wrong.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:55 pm

Richard H wrote:Actually I'm unhappy with the crock of crap that the manufactures are feeding, the ISSF has bought, and the English and Australians just think is the greatest thing since sliced white bread.

not this little skippy

Spencer

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:58 pm

Spencer wrote: not this little skippy

Spencer

What does that mean? (seriously)

Never mind I figured it out. You don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced white bread.

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:41 pm

Seeing as no one has answered my twice asked question about the cylinders that have failed, I'll answer it myself.

The recorded failed cylinders are most likely less than 10 years old. They failed due to manufacturing and/or material flaws. Refresh my memory, what year of manufacture Anschutz cylinders were recalled and what year were they recalled. Work it out for yourself.

The 10 year rule is useless at stopping these type of failures, only proper testing at the time of manufacturing will stop them.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:32 pm

Is Dortmund this coming week ? If so it'll be interesting to hear if cylinders are being checked there.

Rob.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:42 am

RobStubbs wrote:Is Dortmund this coming week ? If so it'll be interesting to hear if cylinders are being checked there.

Yes it is this week, but as it is not an ISSF supervised meeting and being held under the auspices of the DSB I don't think we will learn much about what the ISSF intention was.

We will probably find out more from what happens at the Changwon and Beijing World Cups in April and the Milan World Cup in May. To a certain extent I am discounting the Munich World Cup as the organisers will be free to impose any additional local safety rules and we know that they checked cylinders at the January airgun meeting.

tenex · Post by **tenex** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:04 am

Everyone is all worked up over the ISSF checking cylinders, but I'm more concerned about the local impact. If no one will repair my Feinwerkbau model 2 (or sell me parts) then I mind as well throw it in the trash. That means that in 5 or 10 years the only real way to start shooting AP will be to go out and buy a (by then) $2500 to $3000 gun. Not a lot of people will do that. We see that now, with repair stations drilling holes in 10 year old cylinders (no disrespect intended to our gracious host). What about a 12 year old Tau 7? Is that now junk?

All the good shooters I've met seem to have started with an older inexpensive used gun (many still shoot them). If everyone needs a <10 year old gun to shoot in my local league, I guarantee it will fold. If you send Crosman a 15 year old 2300, do you think they will refuse to fix it? I doubt it.

Unlike rapid fire where the ISSF could just toss the .22 short pistols and maintain the event, if they turn AP into a competition requiring a fairly new specialized and expensive gun, it will most likely die.

Steve.

P.S. I appreciate the safety issue, and if I need to spend $100 every 10 years to check my cylinders (and replace if necessary) I'm perfectly OK with that. But when I have to throw away a perfectly good gun because of an arbitrary and capricious rule, that crosses the line.

peepsight · Post by **peepsight** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:07 pm

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject but is the ISSF applying German law to this 10 year rule for all countries.
Some countries have different laws/rules on pressure vessels and testing and some countries don't require testing for pressure vessels below a certain volume capacity.

Is there any international agreement on pressure vessels and their life/testing etc. If there isn't then why should German law apply in the USA or any other country for that matter where laws/rules concerning pressure vessels may be different.

My air gun manufacturer just requires the cylinder returned after 10 years for testing, not replacement. If it fails the test then its replaced.

Peeps

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:34 pm

Richard H wrote:Safety and reasonableness, I think those are the same reasons they used to take away your handguns too. It might be an idea to question these things rather than just accept them with such glee and vigor.

I'm with you Richard. Bureaucrats and their rules can spread like a disease unless treated/questioned at the beginning. I was happy to read that USAS is taking a reasonable approach to this issue.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:02 pm

peepsight wrote:I don't claim to be an expert on this subject but is the ISSF applying German law to this 10 year rule for all countries.

I'll say it yet again. The ISSF is not applying a 10 year rule.

Please read Rule 6.2.2.8
"It is the shooter’s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date."

That is all that the ISSF have said. At the only ISSF supervised championship so far held under the new rules, cylinders were not checked.

If a group of manufacturers have decided to impose a 10 year limit on their cylinders then blame those manufacturers.

Other manufacturers are happily sticking to their previous 20 year limit.

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:09 pm

David Levene wrote:
peepsight wrote:I don't claim to be an expert on this subject but is the ISSF applying German law to this 10 year rule for all countries.
I'll say it yet again. The ISSF is not applying a 10 year rule.

Please read Rule 6.2.2.8
"It is the shooter’s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date."

That is all that the ISSF have said. At the only ISSF supervised championship so far held under the new rules, cylinders were not checked.

If a group of manufacturers have decided to impose a 10 year limit on their cylinders then blame those manufacturers.

Other manufacturers are happily sticking to their previous 20 year limit.

If, as you say, the ISSF is simply interested in safety, then why choose only air/co2 cylinders. Why not do away with (potentially) unsafe hand-loads in CF? Shooters should use only loads 'certified as safe in the pistol'.

Further, how do I, as a shooter, get my cylinder certified as safe? Is the validity date the only way to show that a cylinder is safe? What about those Anschutz cylinders? Presumably they were within the validity date.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:15 am

Fred Mannis wrote: If, as you say, the ISSF is simply interested in safety......

I don't know for certain that is all they are interested in. I haven't seen any evidence however, discounting the scaremongering from those who haven't actually read the rule, that it goes any further.

Fred Mannis wrote: ..........then why choose only air/co2 cylinders. Why not do away with (potentially) unsafe hand-loads in CF? Shooters should use only loads 'certified as safe in the pistol'.

Perhaps you should suggest that to them if you feel it would increase safety.

Fred Mannis wrote: Further, how do I, as a shooter, get my cylinder certified as safe? Is the validity date the only way to show that a cylinder is safe?

That, according to the ISSF rule, is your responsibility. One way that I can think of is to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. If you can find someone who will re-certify your cylinders and give them a new validity date then, from my reading of the rule, you would have satisfied your responsibility.

Fred Mannis wrote: What about those Anschutz cylinders? Presumably they were within the validity date.

That is just a demonstration that there is never a 100% guarantee of safety. "Stuff happens".

edit note: IF the ISSF start insisting on validity date checks at Equipment Control then my view might change; at the moment they have not.