LP50 Trigger and Dry Fire Queries

Pabs · Post by **Pabs** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:33 pm

I am in the market for an LP50 or an LP10. I live in a country town and the pistol club to which I belong has few members who are generally not "into" air pistol. Hence the types and sophistication of air pistols is very limited. I shot for 15 years but have been out of the sport for 5 although I have been using a SCATT trainer almost daily for the past 2 years. My previous air pistol was an LP10. - which I loved. It was both accurate and forgiving.

As I am reentering shooting I want to focus on air pistol but still compete in other events like Standard, Rapid Fire and Center Fire. With an LP50 I can shoot in all these club events (although the scores will not be officially recognized) and be a part of the club rather than be known as the "bloke who plinks full time on the air range".

I have never held, let alone gripped an LP50. I've read the reviews and opinions expressed on Target Talk. It seems it is a popular, accurate and reliable pistol. My concern is the trigger. I gather the new model no longer comes with a choice of 2 triggers and that the trigger supplied is a rollover trigger rather than a 2 stage trigger as in the LP10.

My experience with rollover triggers has largely been with rimfire 22s and I have not come across them on an air pistol before.

I mentally imagine the action of a rollover trigger being a bit like walking up a longish concave slope before it changes to a short convex slope - with the release/break shortly thereafter.

A long intro to the questions. How long is the pull? With a smooth, constant pressure does the shot have a "surprise" break? Can you feel the moment of "slope change" or is it just one smooth action? Is the trigger pull adjustable ie can you make it shorter /longer?

Additionally I would like to "marry" the LP50 to my SCATT. I know there is a dry fire option but can't get any detail. Is it a magazine? If so, is it only single shot or does it have the facility to dry fire multiple shots?

I would really appreciate observations TargetTalk members might have.

cheers

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:58 pm

There never was a two stage trigger for the LP5 or 50 the other trigger is just a heavier 3 lb trigger. The trigger although not the same as a LP10 is still a decent trigger.

Dryfiring with the LP50, there are two ways if practicing ingle shot you just cock it and it will click when the trigger is pulled. If practicing multi-shot events you need a dryfire mag (an option) it look like the magazine but has no holes for pellets. Pull the trigger five times and you will get five shots, it does expel ari in this mode as it is required to advance and reset the trigger.

If you do plan on competing with the LP50 you'll need to order the single shot magazine too.

I've had the LP5 for years and it shoots well, I use it as a backup for my LP10, the LP50 is basically the same except it has the ported barrel like the LP10 and the barrel shroud take the little weights like the LP10.

A guy in our club has used his to shot along in standard pistol, and sport and it shoots fine at 25 yds.

I'm sure some of the guys from Englan can chime in as they use the LP5 and 50 to shoot standard pistol and such as the .22's are banned.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:09 am

As Richard says, we have used the LP5 and LP50 to shoot the 25m events for the last 12 years.

They are perfectly capable of accuracy at that distance.

As an example, someone who expected to shoot 540-570 Standard pistol with a cartridge gun would normally be capable of shooting about 10 points higher with a (500g trigger) LP5 or LP50. The reverse is not necessarilly true. That does not seem to be a consistant correlation for someone who has not, or has only rarely, shot with a cartridge gun.

You mention using the LP50 with Scatt. I haven't used Scatt for a couple of years now but, when I did, it was not capable of registering multi-shots unless the pistol was moved "off-aim" between shots. By "off-aim" I mean moving the pistol so far that it is not registering on the Scatt. This, unless things have changed (other more recent users may be able to help), means that you cannot shoot Standard Pistol on Scatt.

Pabs · Post by **Pabs** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:09 am

Richard thanks for the dry fire info. It is nice to know the LP50 can dryfire in single shot mode without a specialised magazine - hopefully it has a similar dry fire configuration as the LP10 for single shot. I will order the additional mag though as David rightly points out (and thank you for your comments) SCATT doesn't support multiple shot mode but having a five shot dry fire mag in say the rapid component of centre fire saves having to recock between shots. I used to shoot my LP10 in centre fire in matches at the range and found it fired flat (and accurately) over 25 metres but reloading in the 6 seconds sometimes wasn't as smooth as it could have been.

Richard and/or David I would appreciate any thoughts on the action of the rollover trigger...

cheers

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:29 am

Pabs wrote:It is nice to know the LP50 can dryfire in single shot mode without a specialised magazine - hopefully it has a similar dry fire configuration as the LP10 for single shot.

Not quite. To dry fire you need to make sure the pistol is cocked and not have a magazine in place.

Pabs wrote:Richard and/or David I would appreciate any thoughts on the action of the rollover trigger...

I wouldn't describe it as a rollover trigger. It's more a trigger that was designed to be crisp but didn't quite make it due to the trigger creep.

Compared to cheaper "target" air pistols the trigger is quite good. Compared to top quality single shots it isn't.

I had to shoot my LP5 in an AP60 match a few weeks ago and, probably because I was having to concentrate so hard on getting a good trigger release, my score was only a few points below what I would have expected with my 162EI.

Pabs · Post by **Pabs** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:04 pm

David thanks yet again... I think ;)

More info then I need to ask a couple more more questions. The Australian government offered a gun buyback 5 years ago. If you took up the offer you agreed to leave shooting for a minimum of 5 years. For a number reasons I took up the offer. After 3 years I found I had unfinished business with shooting and set about ensuring when I returned I would not have lost the skills I had taken years to develop. So I bought a SCATT system and homebrewed a "dummy" pistol from scrounged leftovers; a rapid fire trigger assembly (which was brilliant until it died 5 months ago - the "new" one is a horror), a standard 22 grip, a lot of scrap metal and plenty of cloth tape. The creation isn't pretty (pix attached) but has served me well over the past 2 years - I average 100 shots a day, 5 days a week. I have learned a lot about shooting and have modified my technique in the light of analysis done of the SCATT data. Whether I am a better shooter will be determined when I live fire again - which won't be long..

My 5 years is up. I have rejoined the gun club and am currently waiting for my licence application to be approved (a minimum of 1 month) then another month to get approval to acquire a pistol. My intention is/was to get one gun (the LP50) to shoot socially at the club (standard, rapid, centre fire knowing the scores won't count but having a good time with the other members), training at home with the SCATT (I am now retired and have the time) and to shoot competitively - that unfinished business I mentioned - I want to shoot a master grade score in an away competition(s). So the choice of a pistol is extremely important to me.

Sorry for the long winded background, now to the questions. Your observation about the LP50 having trigger creep is interesting. Could you describe the sensation and is it consistent from shot to shot?

As an aside, the Morini 162EI you mentioned. Is there a different feel to the electronic trigger when the shot breaks from say a pistol with a mechanical trigger?

cheers

Paul

FredB · Post by **FredB** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:55 pm

Pabs,

I have both an LP5 and LP1, and I love them both. While I wouldn't disagree with anything that has been said so far about the LP5, I'm afraid you might be somewhat misled about dry-firing it, if you depended only on the previous comments.

IMHO single shot dry-firing of the LP5 is a pain - literally. I find pushing back the cocking levers on the LP5 both difficult and painful to my fingers when I try to do repeated single shot dry-firing. I would not consider doing any extensive single shot dry-fire training with it. It is quite different from the LP1 in that respect.

HTH, YMMV,

FredB

jipe · Post by **jipe** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:28 am

Pabs wrote:The Australian government offered a gun buyback 5 years ago. If you took up the offer you agreed to leave shooting for a minimum of 5 years.

That's a real shame: using public money to pay people to stop doing sport ! How can it be that sport shooting, one of the Olympics sports, got such a bad reputation that government pay to stop doing it just like the government pays treatments to stop drug addict. Would they pay to stop doing football seen all the problem with violence and hooligans in football ?

What happens to you if you shoot again before the end of the 5 years time: go in jail for the rest of your life, death penalty ?

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:09 am

Pabs wrote:Sorry for the long winded background, now to the questions. Your observation about the LP50 having trigger creep is interesting. Could you describe the sensation and is it consistent from shot to shot?

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that the LP5/50 trigger is bad. It isn't, unless you are comparing it to a top-line pistol.

I am not sure what you are asking about with regard to trigger creep. Creep is creep; the trigger is not as crisp as it should be. On my LP5 it's pretty consistent.

Pabs wrote:As an aside, the Morini 162EI you mentioned. Is there a different feel to the electronic trigger when the shot breaks from say a pistol with a mechanical trigger?

On a mechanical trigger you get a sudden reduction in weight at the moment the firing mechanism operates. On many pistols this is hidden slightly by a trigger over-travel stop.

On an electronic trigger like the 162EI there is no mechanical linkage to the firing mechanism so no sudden reduction in weight. IMHO this gives a much smoother trigger feel. Some like it, some don't, and some can't tell the difference.

I don't understand what you mean by a "master grade score" so will just say that I have seen many 560+ scores shot with an LP5/50.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:46 am

Master Grade in AUS for mens Air Pistol is 570+

Pabs · Post by **Pabs** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:00 am

FredB:
Thanks for the dry fire info. If I go ahead with the LP50 I will be purchasing the dry fire magazine. If single shot dry firing proves a problem, I'll use the mag.

Jipe:
You have to put the Buy Back in Australia into context. At the time there had been a recent shooting related massacre in Tasmania. The media did a beatup on shooters and shooting in general and the Government took the political decision to be seen doing something about the number of guns in the community. Licenced shooters were targetted and many took the opportunity to exit the sport subsidised by the Government.

If you exited the sport your licence was cancelled and you were unable to acquire another licence for 5 years; no licence, no gun(s) no shooting. It will be interesting to see how many "retired" shooters reapply for licences in the coming months.

David:
I love the "creep is creep". I can handle consistent. Thanks for the electronic trigger explanation. Thank goodness for forums like target talk where isolated people like me can ask "dumb" questions and get great answers.

Master grade in Australia is one (and the last) step up from A grade. In air pistol to achieve Master Grade you must shoot 575 or above in Air Pistol at a pistol competition certified by the relevant State shooting authority. I had thought it was a world wide ISSF (International Shooting Sport Federation) grading standard - might be wrong.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:23 am

Pabs wrote:Master grade in Australia is one (and the last) step up from A grade. In air pistol to achieve Master Grade you must shoot 575 or above in Air Pistol at a pistol competition certified by the relevant State shooting authority. I had thought it was a world wide ISSF (International Shooting Sport Federation) grading standard - might be wrong.

No, the only score the ISSF has is the Minimum Qualifying Score (MQS) which you must have hit in a qualifying match before you can take up a quota place (or double-start) in the Olympics. For the last Olympic cycle it was set at (the ridiculously low) 563 for AP60.

I wouldn't say that the LP5/50 isn't capable of shooting 575+ in the right hands, but it wouldn't be the pistol I would choose. The trigger coupled with the mechanical movement when it recocks would make things a little more difficult than with dedicated single shot pistols.

Pabs · Post by **Pabs** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:53 pm

I think this topic has served its purpose. I have learned a lot. Thanks to those who made a contribution(s). I have a window of maybe 3 to 5 weeks to make a decision on which pistol to buy. Despite the lack of a 2 stage trigger the LP50 is still running favourite ;)

I will add a reply to this topic on what I buy and how I am going with it should anyone be interested.

Thanks again

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:03 pm

Wow I got to give you lots of credit for your ingenuity that is a very unique dryfire pistol. I hope it has served you well. Good luck, glad to see you back in the sport.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:58 am

Just a quick comment; for dry firing you can buy the blank magazine - i.e. it has no holes in it. Just load it as normal and it fires more like a normal shot, releases a small amount of air and advances to the next 'shot'. With this you can 'dry fire' 5 shots - although as mentioned, the scatt wouldn't pick it up.

Rob.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:00 am

RobStubbs wrote:Just a quick comment; for dry firing you can buy the blank magazine - i.e. it has no holes in it. Just load it as normal and it fires more like a normal shot, releases a small amount of air and advances to the next 'shot'.

Just don't use it to dry fire before or during the preparation period for a match.

Although it's only a small amount, it is releasing air, and that can get you a warning (at least).