TargetTalk

Are Nygord pellets a thing of the past? If not does anyone no where to get them. What would be a good comparison to these?

I am not a pellet expert. However, I'd be willing to bet there is among us one capable of identifying that pellet's true source.

My thinking is that the Nygord pellets are culled, picked, or chosen from a major manufacturers current line of products to be very consistent in dimension and weight.

They are select lots of H&N that meet the requirements specified by Don.

Recipe to have more Nygord pellets, assuming you have some already.

1.Buy H&N Finale Match.

2. Remove the H&N sticker of top off of the tin.

3. carefully peel the green and gold sticker off your old tins.

4. Now place the green and gold sticker on top of of the H&N tin.

5. Voila! Exactly the same.

6.Serve with the airpistol of your choice.

7. Invest the difference in price that you have saved in your 401(K)

Pilkguns sells them for a much cheaper price than R10s. Nygord pellets are also german manufactured, so good quality might be expected. I bought a few tins and they keep a ten when my mind and body lets me. R10s appear to be a cleaner pellet, leaving less residue on your fingers and having a cleaner look to it, but overall both shoot the same.

H&N Finale Match pellets are rather expensive, much more than Nygord Precision Pellets. Perhaps you could post a source/price for the H&N Finale Match pellets.

Pilkguns sells Vogel Pellets, which are also really good pellets, but they are NOT H&N Finale Match Pellets.

WHERE in the US can one get H&N Finale Match with the H&N lable, CC has them with the Walther lable, someone else has them with the AHG lable. I'm not sure what Beeman sells that they call H&N. (all of them cost more than Nygord charge(d) for his H&N's)

I found H&N on a canadian website.

Any other suggestions?

ALSO

what is the difference between the two "weights" some website list one for pistol and one for rifle, I think the lighter one is labled "hi speed". Any experience? should one use heavy in rifle and light in pistol or should we buy some of each and test them in each gun to find what works best, 2 diameters, 2 weights, 2 guns, 3 brands is a LOT of testing...

Nygord says diameter doesn't matter. But why do the test targets with both my guns say 4.49"

Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/

I would disagree that diameter doesn't matter. I shoot 4.50 as 4.49's feel too loose in my gun. You should batch test with different diameters and see which works best (and test different brands). I use the H&N match and they contain a higher amount of lead 'swarf' than I would expect from a quality pellet.

Oh and on the lid they have a picture of a rifle or a pistol - that's how I choose them ;-)

Rob.

creedmore sports in calif. has been trying to get a contract with H&N for pellets. If they get enough calls, they may sell they nygord pellets.

I'll chip in with what I know...

Don Nygord and Jocelyn Langlois of Cibles Canada Targets (CCT) both visited H&N at the same time and both contracted for "house-labeled" pellets. Both are select versions of H&N Finale Match. I've used the CCT-Select branded ones and have yet to find a batch of H&N Finale Match that will shoot as well as the CCT-Select pellets. I suspect the same may be said for Nygords. For anybody who wants Nygord pellets, you'll have to get them from Nygord as they are part of a contract between Nygord and H&N. They are NOT a brand name that will be manufactured for anybody else.

On the issue of rifle vs pistol pellets, the "golden rule" of rifle pellets for rifles and pistol pellets for pistols shouldn't be used as anything other than general guidance. After testing 10 brands of pellets I've found that all my air pistols (LP-1C, LP-10P, CM162EI) actually shoot better with rifle pellets (fortunately, so does my rifle!). My pellet of choice is the CCT-Select H&N Finale Match Glatt (rifle). They shoot groups significantly better than the H&N Finale Match pistol pellets, and far better than the High Speed variant of H&N Finale Match. My LP1 still shoots the CCT-branded pistol pellets better than anything else, but they're no longer available (darn it!).

There is one rule which will always remain a constant. Test the pellets in your gun and use the one that works best in your gun, no matter what anybody else says. Never rely on pellet-selection advice from others without confirming it with empirical test results in your own gun.

I just spent a few minutes on the CCT site and didn't find any private label pellets listed. I would be interested in trying a sleeve of them.

Of course, having said that, I probably will not notice any appreciable improvement in my scores - but, for the few pennies, I like to try the top of the line pellets.

Bill177 - CCT sold out of their "CCT-Select" pellets about 10 months ago. I think I got the last or maybe 2nd last case of their rifle pellets. The pistol pellets sold out maybe a month or two earlier. Bummer - they're fantastic pellets!

I've been trying to talk Jocelyn into entering into another agreement with H&N, but it's difficult now that he's the sole H&N distributor in Canada. Oh well, I guess I'll have to keep working on him!

Mark,
H&N pellets are H&N pellets. Do you think for one second that a company like that would sell their best, the cream of the crop to someone else? Are you kidding me? Especially to little known dealers from the entire World's or even the German perspective? if your CTC pellets shot better than anything before it was because you got lucky and everything lined up, barel to head diameter, and velocity and barrel length. Any of those numbers you could have fiddled with to get a mediocre batch shooting perfectly. Twenty times more so with pistol versus rifle. How to select pellets has been gone over numerous times on this board and I'm not going to repeat it now, but come on guys, think about what you are saying.

I have run out of my 25k batch of pellets and am about the batch-test in my Xmas shooting rest period. Approx 52% of my match shots are 10’s so I am looking for a decent group size. The old batch for info was H&N fin match 4.49 pistol but in UK we only have access to a “few” batches of H&N and R10 to test from. I have no brand loyalty and just want to establish expectations/protocol for objective testing. I will focus on “pistol” designated pellets. Apologies if any of the questions cover old ground!

1. What is best way of holding an CM162 Morini, I was considering making wooden blocks for either side of the cylinder and clamp cylinder within these blocks. The clamp arrangement would be a solid floor mounted vice we use for rifle/pistol ammunition testing.

2. What group size should I expect as the best widest outside edge to outside edge of pellet holes for (a) 10 shots and (b) 60 shots.

alternatively,

3. If centred on an electronic target, what is the lowest gun score that should be recorded for an acceptable batch? 10.9 would obviously be nice but I don’t know what my realistic expectations should be. I do not want waste time testing for its own sake or seeking something unattainable. I will use some of the remnants of the old batch as a control!

If anybody has any existing tests or tips, these would be much appreciated

I shot 10M air rifle for over 20 yrs. before I get into shooting air pistol, as everyone knows, the 10 ring on AR is a dot of 0.5MM in dia. so your pellet got to be good to shoot well.

Over the yrs. I've tested many many combinations of AR, pellets of various weight, sizes, makes and so on. I don't want anyone to think I'm the expert when it comes to pellets, but I do learn a thing or two.

The most important factor that will affect the accuracy of a pellet is the skirt of the pellet, it must not be deformed, dented or lost its perfect roundess. this is paramount, any other considerations such as weight and sizes are secondery, poor skirt, poor pellet, period.

Undersize pellets generally shoot better than oversize pellets, I think thats because oversize pellets( 4.51MM and over ) skirt deform too much when its force into the rifling, part of the skirt may ever tear off as the pellet speeding down the barrel, while a slightly undersize pellet if the lead is soft enough, the skirt will expand under air pressure to form a perfect seal, fully engaging the rifling. I've seen many 4.5, 4.49 even 4.48MM pellet shot one hole group at 10M, but never saw 4.51MM pellet shot well.

All thing consider, heavier pellet shot better than light pellet. Test pellet with a chronograph, heavy pellet produce a more consistance velocity. By the way, a good quality AR or AP match with good pellets, should not have a velocity vary more than +/- 2%, very few airgun/pellet combinations can produce a result of less than +/- 1%. If your AP or ARs velocity vary more than 2%, try a different pellet.

To be statisticlly relevant, at least 25 shots must be fired to obtain velocity data or group sizes, better yet 5, 10 shots strings gave a more accurate picture.

What is the most accurate velocity for AR or AP? Some yrs ago, one of my AR shooting friends score took an unexplainable nose dive, evrey things check out fine, until we check the velocity of his FWB 601 AR, its only doing about 515 ft/s, while my much older 300S is doing over 570 ft/s, a new set of seals later its shooting at 560 ft/s and his score is back to where it should be. Some airguns require a higher velocity to be accurate, we all heard how Morini CM162 shot better at 470ft/s and Steyr LP10 shot best around 550 ft/s. May be the rate of twist of the barrel of these 2 AP are different? Have somebody checked?

As our host said before, when it come to AP, the 10 ring being much bigger, pellet size, weight etc, is moot. However, if others like to spend time and energy to test pellets for thier AP, well its your time and efforts, if nothing else, after all the testing, you should have the utmost confidence in your equipment. For myself I just buy whatever make of 4.5MM heavy pellet and spent my time pratice shooting.

Tony C. wrote:
The most important factor that will affect the accuracy of a pellet is the skirt of the pellet, it must not be deformed, dented or lost its perfect roundess. this is paramount, any other considerations such as weight and sizes are secondery, poor skirt, poor pellet, period.

Undersize pellets generally shoot better than oversize pellets, I think thats because oversize pellets( 4.51MM and over ) skirt deform too much when its force into the rifling, part of the skirt may ever tear off as the pellet speeding down the barrel, while a slightly undersize pellet if the lead is soft enough, the skirt will expand under air pressure to form a perfect seal, fully engaging the rifling. I've seen many 4.5, 4.49 even 4.48MM pellet shot one hole group at 10M, but never saw 4.51MM pellet shot well.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's my understanding that the pellet size designations are measurements of HEAD diameter, and not skirt diameter. If that's correct, and the "most important factor" is the skirt, then why would a 4.51 head size pellet not shoot well? Are you saying that pellets with larger head sizes also have larger skirt sizes?

Fred

Fred, you are correct, sizing of pellets refer to the head size, I havn't measure pellet head and skirt size of various pellets, its my experience the skirt condition, ie. no dents, nicks, cut and so on is more important in terms of its accuarcy. Oversize pellets, I think deform too much at both the head and skirt as it being squeeze down the barrel, making them less accurate than a proper or slightly undersize pellets.

Elsewhere on this thread, some one ask whats the best way to clamp a CM 162 onto a test bench. When I was testing air rifle, I always clamp my AR into my Black and Decker Workmate, for CM 162, I think one can remove the grip, drill 2 holes in a piece of metal, with the same spacing of the 2 holes where the grip are secure onto the receiver, bolt the metal onto a piece of wood or steel, you got yourself a CM 162 test stand. I havn't make one for myself yet, as I said before, when it come to AP, I rather spend time praticing.

While on the subject of testing, heres a couple of more things I learned over the years testing AR.

Use good quality target paper like Edleman when doing grouping test, they held up better and pellets punch a clean hole even after repeat shooting into the same area. Someone also ask what would be a good group size earlier, I use a rather crude way to determine which grouping is better than other, shoot a 5 shot group, if the gun and pellets are good, it should be a one hole group, pick up a pellet, see if the pellet will drop thru the hole or not, with a good AR, the pellet will stuck in the hole, havn't try that with any AP, the factory test group of my CM 162 seems will allow a pellet slide thru it.

When testing AP like Steyr LP10, use a pellet seating tool so the pellet will seat at a uniform deepness everytime, the seating tool can be just the end of a ballpoint pen or a small wooden dowel, its important to seat the pellet as consistant as possible, or the velocity reading will be erratic, for AP like CM 162, seating tool is not needed, as the bolt will push the pellet into the chamber, seating it the same everytime.

If you are using chronograph with a skyscreen, make sure your shots are not going thru them at an angle, unlike centerfire rifle, velocity of target airgun are quite slow, about 500-600 ft/s or so, any small angle of deviation of the pellets path thru the chrono will gave erroneous results.

After all the testing, if one still can't decide what pellet to use, stay with the tried and true one, 4.5MM, 520mg or heavier, you just can't go too wrong with them, unless your AP shot below 400 ft/s, like the Daisy 717, then choose the light weight pellet, 500mg or lighter, so it will cut a cleaner hole on the target.

Pilkguns had said many times, when it come to AP, you need not to worry about pellet choice until you can shoot a 10 almost every time, I agree. May be I'm just repeating what alot of you already know, I'll do some serious pellet testing with my CM 162 when I can shoot consistantly 570 or better, thats going to be a long long time from now!