TargetTalk

I am looking for a economical match rifle for home practice during the NRA Highpower off-season. I don't need a rifle that is capable of being competitive in ISSF matches, but I do want one that is accurate enough to allow me to call my shots and see improvement.

I have been considering the following so far: Daisy Avanti 853/753/888, Tech Force Model 79, and Tech Force BS4. These obviously all have different power plants.

I like the Avanti 853 because it is under $200 and is a single stoke pneumatic, so I won't have to fiddle with recharging it. I have heard the triggers are not that good and that accuracy is good but not great. Seems kind of feeble at less than 500 fps.

The TF79 has a good reputation for accuracy, is only $150, and has nice target stock for half the price of the Avanti 753. Down side is poor cold weather operation on CO2 and worrying about keeping CO2 on hand. I could use a secondary regulated HPA bulk tank, but then I have the cost and hassle of keeping a SCUBA tank handy at home. The Daisy 888 would have the same re-charge hassles as the TF79 without the benefit of a target stock.

The BS4 appears to be a very capable (if rather homely, by some people's estimation) clone of the FWB 300. It is reported to have excellent accuracy and has no re-charging hassles. The down side is cost at $476. If it were priced around $250 is would be a no-brainer.

Does the BS4 perform well enough to justify the added cost over the others? The Daisy 753 sells for just over $300 and is functionally similar to the BS4 in terms of stock fit and being a single stroke power plant. How does it compare in terms of accuracy and durability?

Any comments will be appreciated.

Scatt or Rika might be a good choice

Poole

Bill,

No offense, but if I could afford one of those trainers I wouldn't be inquiring about "economical" match rifles. I'm looking to spend a few hundred dollars for a respectably accurate practice rifle.

Another option would be a rimfire match rifle. I live in the country and I have enough space and the proper backstop to safely shoot a rimfire in my backyard. With sub-sonic ammo I don't think my neighbors would notice. I have been amazed at the cost of the quality name-brand match air rifles. I just figured they would be cheaper than a firearm in general. Could an accurate rimfire rifle (maybe used) be had for less than $250?

If the cost gets up near $500, I might as well buy a rimfire upper for my AR-15. But I don't have that kind of cash available right now, unless I tell my daughter she can't have braces.


Robert

How about just take your highpower rifle and dry fire with it. Admitedly it is the most boring thing to do but has advantages over using another rifle that is not shaped or weighted like your bigbore gun.

I do a considerable amount of dry firing. In the end though, it is always best to put some holes in the paper to be sure you are really getting the job done.

I have found dry firing to be a great help in my offhand practice, but one area that has been vexing me lately is POI shift in the prone position. I break the shot with good sight picture, good trigger control, proper breathing, good NPA and the shot is off call. It must be my position and its resistance to the recoil of the gun. I notice the muzzle jump varying in direction and amplitude on some shots.

Will an air rifle or smallbore rifle provide any useful practice in this area? Pneumatics are recoilless, so I am assuming they wouldn't. A good spring-air might, but the recoil direction is reversed. A rimfire in a heavy rifle isn't going to push me around very much either.

Robert Burdge wrote:Bill,

No offense, but if I could afford one of those trainers I wouldn't be inquiring about "economical" match rifles. I'm looking to spend a few hundred dollars for a respectably accurate practice rifle.

Could an accurate rimfire rifle (maybe used) be had for less than $250?

If the cost gets up near $500, I might as well buy a rimfire upper for my AR-15. But I don't have that kind of cash available right now, unless I tell my daughter she can't have braces.
Robert

Hi Robert

Braces are a waste, you put them on you take them off, you get peanut butter behind them forever....

O.K. If I was in your position, I would spend this year dry-firing and buy an AR-15 rimfire upper next year. I wouldn't get the 853 unless you're only looking at doing offhand. The pump is an 18 pound push, and you have to get out of position to pump it. We discourage buying an 853, (or 753, or now 953) for air rifle competition. For prone, you get to roll over, pump, load, and shoot. You would get a LOT of practice getting into position though.

The 888 is a good accurate gun as is the Avanti Valiant, but the $ for a valiant and a pump is about $500.00. As you stated earlier, the 888 isn't a target stock.

I also know of NO reasonably accurate smallbore rifles, with target / aperture sights that are also under $500. Sorry, but I don't think you can get there from here.

Mike
Wichita KS

The TAU-200 is a real target air rifle. Generally not thought of, as it is Co2. But I would not discount it as they are available foten well under $300 in reasonable condition. They are very accurate and have good triggers.

Bill Clarke

mikeschroeder wrote: I also know of NO reasonably accurate smallbore rifles, with target / aperture sights that are also under $500. Sorry, but I don't think you can get there from here.

Mike
Wichita KS

Who said it had to be new? Look around for a used target rifle. I'm sure that you can find a useable rifle for under $500 (I picked up my 52B for $450 with a thumbhole stock and sights). They are out there, but you have to find them.

The SM-2-1 (the rifle that the USAS's new CM2 Youth rifle is based on) was selling on the net for $4-500 last time I looked. It's not going to win you the Olympic Games, but it'll drill a nice enough hole in the center of the target...

But I'd recommend going for a second-hand one myself. You'll get a better quality rifle, so long as it's not completely shot out.

I looked at the SM-1 on the Izhmash site. The CM2 (which they call the Cadet model) is also shown. After realizing that a Match .22 LR upper for my AR-15 is more likely to cost $800 to ~ $900 instead of $500, I am willing to put more money into a smallbore practice rifle. I friend of mine has his FFL and can get the SM-1 or CM-2 for $350 plus tax and something for his trouble. I figure around $400 total (he's a good guy).

For my purposes (informal practice) I would think that this would be a reasonable rifle to choose for the money. It must be capable of good groups or USA Shooting wouldn't be endorsing it.

In checking the specs on the CM-2, I realized that it's 20" barrel and 37" length are almost identical to an AR-15. If I bought the smaller version, this would more closely match the sight radius and length of pull of my AR-15, and my kids could shoot it easier also. Ummmm....

Sparks wrote:The SM-2-1 (the rifle that the USAS's new CM2 Youth rifle is based on) was selling on the net for $4-500 last time I looked. It's not going to win you the Olympic Games, but it'll drill a nice enough hole in the center of the target...

But I'd recommend going for a second-hand one myself. You'll get a better quality rifle, so long as it's not completely shot out.

Hi

I remember reading that the SM-2-1 isn't available here in the US. I looked but haven't seen any. I'd take one though. EAA and Imash make pretty good stuff in air rifles.

Mike

sureshot007 wrote:
They are out there, but you have to find them.

I'd say from where I live that you have to be lucky to find them. We got ONE Anschutz that hadn't been shot since the early 1980's from the old Wichita Smallbore club. The guy sold the rest privately. There usually aren't any at the Wichita Gun shows either. I've only been to the Tulsa show once, and didn't see any either.

That's where the "can't get there from here" comment came from.

Mike
Wichita KS

Mike,

My friend uses Jerry's Sports Center as his wholesaler. He said that they had both the Youth and Adult models for sale in the catalog. Could be a misprint. I'll have him call the warehouse and see if they actual have any in stock.

Robert.

I had a Daisy 853 for my daughter. She was 10 at the time and couldn't pump it.

I traded it in for an 888. That was much easier for her, but as you guessed the CO2 filling is an issue. You have to hae a bulk tank, or make lots of trips to the paintball store.

She's now shooting a P70 Jr. so the 888 was sold seeral months ago.

I think the 853 would work fine for a practice rifle.

Your other option is to do what a friend of mine who shoots high power did. He found a Cheap ruger 10-22, got one of the heavy barrel kits for it and put sights on it that were very similar to his AR-15 high power rifle, Then he filled the stock with lead to simulate the balance of his AR. All up he has about $300 in the rifle. He thinks it's a very good "Understudy" for his AR. Since it is a semi auto it is much closer in operation to his AR than a bolt gun would have been.

Robert Burdge wrote:I do a considerable amount of dry firing. In the end though, it is always best to put some holes in the paper to be sure you are really getting the job done.

I have found dry firing to be a great help in my offhand practice, but one area that has been vexing me lately is POI shift in the prone position. I break the shot with good sight picture, good trigger control, proper breathing, good NPA and the shot is off call. It must be my position and its resistance to the recoil of the gun. I notice the muzzle jump varying in direction and amplitude on some shots.

Will an air rifle or smallbore rifle provide any useful practice in this area? Pneumatics are recoilless, so I am assuming they wouldn't. A good spring-air might, but the recoil direction is reversed. A rimfire in a heavy rifle isn't going to push me around very much either.

a .22 or an air rifle would not produce enough recoil for the purpose you want it for. My dad is a high power shooter. What he does is dry fires but has me move the barrel to simulate recoil. My advice is do the same. Get someone who knows recoil to simulate it. Have them move it in different directions to make sure your position is strong from every angle.

Also, if the muzzle jump is varying that much it means your position isn't strong enough and you are probably muscling the rifle with your shoulder. Spend a few days at a range where you can practice high power and completely rebuild your position. Then go home and dry fire.

Hope I helped!
Katy

AlaskaKate wrote:a .22 or an air rifle would not produce enough recoil for the purpose you want it for. My dad is a high power shooter. What he does is dry fires but has me move the barrel to simulate recoil. My advice is do the same. Get someone who knows recoil to simulate it. Have them move it in different directions to make sure your position is strong from every angle.

Katy,

Do you and he do that w/ bolt guns? I thought that technique went out w/ the M1/M1A family of guns, and mainly for RapidFire stages? Not saying it wouldn't work, but I am kind of curious. Always looking for something new to try. Usually the 'reason' most HP shooters seem to try air or smallbore guns, besides cheaper practice w/ feedback (i.e. holes in the target) is the relatively long barrel time forces them to really follow thru on the shot, which is not something necessarily reinforced by dry-firing.

Robert,

As far as the muzzle jump thing... I picked up a cheaper smallbore gun (Marlin 2000L) for practicing w/, and was getting frustrated when I noticed the muzzle taking off in odd directions. The shots seemed to follow the muzzle though, so the next question was how to control the jump. I got into the book 'Ways of the Rifle', and went over the portion on the Prone position, specifically elbow placement, and found I could dang near steer the muzzle jump by where I put the right elbow on the mat. When I had it to where the muzzle recoiled straight up, every time, the shots just about went in the same hole.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to translate that directly to HP; my performance w/ my match rifle w/ iron sights has been dismal, to say the least. W/ a scope on I do OK, but irons so far have been not good. I think I might be anticipating the recoil or flinching some w/ the 6.5-08 that I don't do w/ the .22, and may be 'seeing' it and correcting it w/ the scope on. Dunno. Still working on that part.

Monte

yes we do it with the bolt rifles...but not to simulate rapid fire. If my dad needs work on rapid I sit there and time him all day.