TargetTalk

There has been some talk about the lack of base, total shooters participating, in the Olympic shooting sports. The governing bodies are in some small way responsible for this but the proponderance of responsibility falls on the principles selling sporter air rifle to the United States. The statistics are not to be found, except those noted showing the gigantic landslide towards sporter air. Sporter air shooters rarely advance to higher games, are not recruited into college shooting programs, particpants display a low level of interest in shooting sports and disappear after time.
It's heartbreaking for those of us who have dedicated a considerable part of our life to Olympic shooting.

While I can't disagree with your facts, I can't see a way around it. I have enough trouble getting Mommy to fork over $250 for the Dasiy 888 to start out. When they already have the spotting scope, pad, kneeling roll, and other equipment SOMETIMES we can get them to fork over for the Steyr, jacket, pants, and boots. Not often though.

I'd take a $45,000 grant to buy 15 Steyr's, and a jacket in each size for my precision team... Anybody got too much money?

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

While many of the Sporter 3P Air rifle shooters are tied to a school, where the logistics of Precision shooting adds too much complexity (large variety of clothing sizes), many clubs use the Sporter as an introduction for the new shooters and those interested progress to Precision.

Our club was a smallbore club since 1951, started in precision air rifle (then 3P Precision) about 6 or 8 years ago, and finally added Sporter 3P Air three years ago.

We have a full range of smallbore and air rifles, as well as scopes, gloves, jackets, slings, (but no pants or shoes) which we have gathered over 50+ years.

The greatest problem from having more participation in Wyoming (and I suspect most sttates) is a lack of adults willing to get involved as instructors and coaches. Kids will come out of the woodwork if a program is offered, and equipment ($) can be found.

We have great support from our adult club, the local Am Legion, county recreation board, school district recreation board, and Friends of NRA. We also have the ususal raffles and other fund raisers, and have established a 501(c)3 to help with clinics and trips to national level competitions.

Get started running a club (and finding other adults who can step in when you have to be awy or are no longer able to help) nad ask for help on this site, and I'm sure you will get loks of good ideas.

Here's a kooky idea that I think might be worth running with...
What say we all propose to our state associations that they adopt and pass a resolution stating: In order for any individual to enter a state championship sanctioned by their state association, that individual must be a member of a club that has an active junior program in THAT DISCIPLINE."

Hmmm... so how do we define active? How about this... active means: affiliated with NRA and CMP; at least 4 juniors on the roster; and at least half are active in attending matches. If it's a new program, they get a two year grace period. Any kid can shoot a match within two years of picking up a gun. maybe we lump SB and air together since they are so closely inter-related.

Net result is that if your club has a junior program, but it's faltering, you better step up. if you don't have one, you better step up. If you do and it's healthy, good for you- thank your club's Jr. division leaders if they ain't you!

This also keeps a pistol shooter from getting off the hook by pointing to his club's rifle program. And same for a HP shooter shooter who lays claim to his club's airgun program.

This is just an idea, and it will get people screaming bloody hell, but it would also get results if it was implemented. Force the issue of jr. development. Want to shoot international? better teach a kid along the way...

Pick it apart, or let's refine it into something that we think will work.

Larry Sawyer

I have enough trouble getting Mommy to fork over $250 for the Dasiy 888 to start out. When they already have the spotting scope, pad, kneeling roll, and other equipment SOMETIMES we can get them to fork over for the Steyr, jacket, pants, and boots. Not often though.

Up until about 3-4 years ago, I would have automatically agreed with you on that statement. Then I was there to watch paintball hit the big time, from the inside of the industry. "Mommy and Daddy" are sure as hell willing to fork over some major money for some reason just for the equipment, then the paintballs are another couple Ben Franklins after that. For those whos parents aren't as fortunate, little Billie will spend all summer working his butt off at any job he can get to save up the money himself.

Just for the sake of comparison, here's the breakdown of equipment that I see kids in their early teens carrying.... but I won't bore you folks with brands and models. Sure there are some with less high dollar stuff, but a good 10-20% of the younger kids carry this type of gear. Those who don't are working to get it.

Paintball gun - $1,000 - $1,200
4500psi air tank - $250-$400
Loader $75-150
Goggles $75
Set of Gloves, Jersey, Pants $150
harness to carry extra paint $50-75
Toss on top of that about $500 in extra "knick knacks" that seem to accumulate at a rapid pace.

You have about $2000-$2500 in stuff already.
Add on around $100-$200 to play PER DAY.

Even just keeping with entry level stuff you can easily go over the $1000 mark in equipment per kid within their first summer of playing. It's totally absurd how much money kids are able to fork over for this stuff. Then they keep throwing more money at it for all types of "Upgrades" that don't do anything, or just simple cosmetics.

The majority are happy to play your normal weekend games down at the local field, and they do it in huge numbers. Most of the fields local to me have a turnout of 100-200 people each for the large outdoor fields, or around 50-75 for the smaller indoor places. This is every weekend, all year long. Quite a lot of these people also want to move up to the higher levels of competition, I've been at events with 300+ teams of 5 with an entry fee of $750-1000 per team.

I know it's comparing totally different activities, but my point is that if the desire is there, people will find a way. In my opinion it's not that kids can't manage the financial side, I just don't think they find competitive shooting to be exciting enough compared to all of the "Extreme" sports that are being forced down their throat every time they see a Mt. Dew commercial. With all the energy of most teenagers, they seem more than happy running around blasting away at things than putting the time, money and effort into something like target shooting that goes at a much slower pace and doesn't offer the instant gratification. Young adults too.

-Hans

I agree with Hans. Have any of you checked out the cost of other sports lately? I have an article around here from a magazine several years ago about what it costs the average kid who decides they want to get into tennis in hopes of making it to the pro level. Shooting is nothing, compared to tennis. And, it is not the only sport that costs a bunch to get into and then to keep going. My point is, that if the desire is there, the kids and/or parents will figure out a way to try to quench that desire. What we need to do is to fan that desire into a flame, but we need to start with a match first by getting much, much, much more grassroots and lower level activities going to hopefully get some good, international shooters into the mix.
Anyway, that is my rant for now.

I think the problem with participation is that shooting doesnt appeal to kids because it isn't in the spotlight. Kids have dreams of being on tv and having people cheer for them and possibly even go to the olympics. When was the last time you saw a blockbuster based on a rifle shooter? Or even a major news special based on a shooter? And before Matt crossfired in the Olympics most people didnt even know it was an olympic sport. Also, many schools dont have rifle teams. If they do they are either JROTC (not appealing to most kids who want to be the general definition of "cool" no offense to you JROTC guys you are cool) or schools dont want to admit that students are shooting guns under their name so the team isn't publicized. For example my high school went 32 consecutive matches undefeated and people still didnt know we had a rifle team.

The bottom line is
Participation levels wont change until people, especially school districts and media stop being so gun shy and taking pride in the awesome athletes that compete in the shooting community

Nah ... it has nothing to do with cost or spotlight. It has to do with THE RUSH. Kids love paintball because kids love to run around. Olympic style shooting would bore most (not all) kids to tears. We live in a fast world. Our kids want fast sports.

I don't think it just settles down on that one issue----I think the term is dedication. You have the new crop of kids coming forth who follow the precepts of their parents and that is they are dedicated to the instant gratification crowd. A kid who wants to shoot a gun, is a quick gimme the gun----bang---bang and that's all there is. I see it in my club's junior program. Darn few kids have the dedication or spirit to give the time to becoming a good rifle shot (pistol is out of the question in the Occupied Country of New York State). Shooting at paper targets is not very satisfying to most kids---blowing up bottles is more of a kick----instant gratification without much if any effort. In the home town I live in has a huge soccer and lacrosse program which could be a farm program for the colleges----they have a 3% retention rate----if there is no orgasm it ain't fun----if I cannot play in the Olympics next year, I won't participate. This isn't just in one sport it permeates the entire range of sports. I coached interscholastic High School Rifle for 22 years and those kids showed up each and every afternoon from October through May without fail. Those were dedicated youngsters who had their parents and the entire community to relate to---there also was no stigma attached to shooting a gun as exists today. When a second grader is sent home from school until a hearing can be held for pointing his finger at a friend imitating a gun, this tells you where the community lives. We are to be lucky that it hasn't gotten to be as in England, Canada and Australia yet.

You and Kate are right, until the schools are taken to task for PC thought police, it isn't going to get better. The NEA owns the public schools.

Bob Riegl wrote:I don't think it just settles down on that one issue----I think the term is dedication. You have the new crop of kids coming forth who follow the precepts of their parents and that is they are dedicated to the instant gratification crowd. A kid who wants to shoot a gun, is a quick gimme the gun----bang---bang and that's all there is. I see it in my club's junior program. Darn few kids have the dedication or spirit to give the time to becoming a good rifle shot (pistol is out of the question in the Occupied Country of New York State). Shooting at paper targets is not very satisfying to most kids---blowing up bottles is more of a kick----instant gratification without much if any effort. In the home town I live in has a huge soccer and lacrosse program which could be a farm program for the colleges----they have a 3% retention rate----if there is no orgasm it ain't fun----if I cannot play in the Olympics next year, I won't participate. This isn't just in one sport it permeates the entire range of sports. I coached interscholastic High School Rifle for 22 years and those kids showed up each and every afternoon from October through May without fail. Those were dedicated youngsters who had their parents and the entire community to relate to---there also was no stigma attached to shooting a gun as exists today. When a second grader is sent home from school until a hearing can be held for pointing his finger at a friend imitating a gun, this tells you where the community lives. We are to be lucky that it hasn't gotten to be as in England, Canada and Australia yet.

I am going to be the only one that disagrees with Hans???

Paintball does NOT cost that much to get into - nor does SBR. Many kids get into paintball with a $200 - $300 gun, and about $100 in accessories. Throw in $40 for a case of paintballs, and you are having a good time in the woods. That's not to say that there arn't kids spending the $2000 on equipment - I am just saying that they ALL don't do it.

In comparison - I spent $450 on my Winchester 52B, $150 on a jacket, $200 on a scope and stand, $75 on an offhand stand and I was off shooting - total investment: $825. Over the years, I have added other goodies, but the have all been used (pants, boots, FWB 100 I got for $200). The deals are out there, but too many kids, and parents for that matter, think in order to be competitive, you have to have the latest and most expensive equipment. My homemade aluminum stock makes them laugh every time - but then they ask me to make them one after they see my scores.

The moral of the story is that the equipment is out there - you just have to find it. And that is the responsibility of the shooter. And if the shooter is a junior - then the coach should help out a bit too. Anybody that has a rifle and gives a sob story as to why they can't shoot is only making excuses - they don't want to. If they can't be the best at it right of the bat, then they don't want to continue in it. I have seen it too many times. There is a lack of determiniation. I would still shoot if all I had was a gun and a sling. I don't care what my scores would be like - I would make it my mission to be able to beat everyone without all the equipment. But kids don't have that sort of committment and that was touched on a little earlier in this post. Exposure is what we need. This sport only appeals to certain people - so we have to get the word out and try to find these people that don't know they like it.

Money has nothing to do with anything, Mom and dad drop a few hundred on an X-box and 50 plus dollars each on all the games. In the last week on two separate occasions, I saw two different children in stollers watching portable DVD players at a couple of hundred dollars (these were maybe two year olds). The arguement about instant gratification really dosen't fly either because then you would have kids in IPSC and Shotgun, action packed and instant gratification. The problem is as stated by other above you are competing against things that require no skill. If you haven't noticed people are lazy and getting more lazy by the minute. Little Jim want to shoot it's going to cost $2000 and Mom or dad is going to have to take him to the range every weekend and to matches. Or we can buy Little Jimmy a new computer and all the video game and entertainemnt devices and Mom and Dad don't have to do anything. Look at the successful sports behind all the kids are parents and I don't think parents are commited to shooting because, get this, no one has ever gotten really famous and made a living on international shooting in North America.

Gentlemen, my concern is that the avalanche of sporter air rifle is suffocating Olympic shooting sports. As a side affect smallbore is equally depreciating. Soon, enough all of us lead throwers will be shooting laser beams and the Olympic movement in the US goes by the wayside.

Oh, I definitely agree that paintball isn't THAT expensive to get into. I've seen packages running $120 at Sports Authority that includes everything you need. My point was actually more that it's not a matter of how much money people have, and that somebody dedicated to something will find a way somehow. I just got too wordy without totally getting around to the point.

I guess the general theme is that for some reason people just aren't getting interested and sticking with things for whatever reasons that people have.

-Hans

Yogi

You seem to be saying that having the youth shoot sproter air rifle is bad for the shooting sports? This seems illogical to me. Please explain.

Yogi wrote:Gentlemen, my concern is that the avalanche of sporter air rifle is suffocating Olympic shooting sports. As a side affect smallbore is equally depreciating. Soon, enough all of us lead throwers will be shooting laser beams and the Olympic movement in the US goes by the wayside.

Consider this: locally all the ROTC programs dropped smallbore, fired here since 1933 for sporter air. Smallbore was putting kids in college, many worked to obtain their own equipment, they went to Nationals and traveled to enjoy shooting targets. Now, with the dumbing down of sporter air there is no significant upward motion of kids to shooting sports. The US is the only country that practices sporter air and the answer to this is: follow the money. That's why we now pump and pop instead of aim and pull.

Along those lines is the new CMP rimfire sporter game. I think it was created to get people who did not want to spring for thousands of dollars worth of equipment into competitive shooting. Instead of using a smallbore course of fire they used something like a highpower course of fire with smallbore rifles. In the end they created a new sport that leads nowhere. I think had it been implemented as a new class in standard smallbore it would have infused a bunch of new blood into smallbore.

Even though the sporter stuff doesn't link-up with upper echelon smallbore competition, I wonder if there might be some way to tap into that shooting base. If it's as popular as you guys claim it is, and if it's getting people into shooting that wouldn't otherwise be, then the task might not be to compete against it but find a way to feed it into more traditional smallbore.

Instead of a drain, convert it over to a resource somehow. How exactly, I don't know yet, but it may not be a bad idea to look into.

-Hans

Yogi wrote:Consider this: locally all the ROTC programs dropped smallbore, fired here since 1933 for sporter air. Smallbore was putting kids in college, many worked to obtain their own equipment, they went to Nationals and traveled to enjoy shooting targets. Now, with the dumbing down of sporter air there is no significant upward motion of kids to shooting sports. The US is the only country that practices sporter air and the answer to this is: follow the money. That's why we now pump and pop instead of aim and pull.

I don't think sporter is "dumbing down". You should see some of the score that are being shot in sporter.

The up-side of sporter air is that there are a lot more schools and clubs shooting because of it. For a lot of groups, having a firearms range is not an option. The base needs to be a big as posible.

Sporter air rifle feeds into Precision air rifle, which feeds into International Air or Smallbore. Ryan Tanoue came up this way.

Smallbore is great, but a lot can be accomplished in sporter or precision on a club level - then off to college and on to the NT.

Right now I would say we need to work on growing junior air pistol programs to start building-up our NT.

Now lets get to work...


Jay V
IL

I dont believe that Sporter is in anyway a bad thing, it is GREAT for getting young kids into the sport and getting their inner position down. However, by the time highschool rolls around the kids that have been shooting sporter for a few years should be encouraged to start investing in precision. Once parents hear the words possible college scholarship it is easy to get them to shell out a couple thousand for starter equipment.
So I guess what Im saying is that sporter isnt a bad thing as long as it is used as a tool to get people into the sport and people realize that they will have to upgrade their game a bit in order to compete in college or the olympics