TargetTalk

I may be asking a dumb question, so I beg forgiveness up front. How do I know when to have my scuba tank refilled ?

If you have a hand pump with a gauge on it, you could just fill up your pistol's cylinder with whatever you have left in the SCUBA and and then use the pump's gauge to check the cylinder's pressure. If it's not topped off as high as you would like, you can then just hand pump it up to maximum. When you get tired of pumping manually, it's time to refill your SCUBA.

But, I'm guessing if you had a pump, you would have figured all this for yourself


Without some sort of gauge on your SCUBA and no hand pump, you will just have to estimate I suppose. But this implicates many variables. While each SCUBA refill reduces the amount of air to the cylinder, I can still get 50-60 refills that will safely get me through a 60 shot match.

I have manometers on my cylinders so I never looked into a gauge for the SCUBA but I'm sure there's something out there.

But, before opting for a SCUBA gauge, I would consider the cost of purchasing a good pump. With a pump, you not only have a way to check your pressure, but you also have an unlimited and mobile source of emergency air. It's also great exercise - just dont try it right before a match! :-)

Paul

Nygord makes a Yoke with a guage on it

http://www.nygord-precision.com/

It only displays the tank pressure WHEN the cylinder is attached.

great for a club, but if you are at home, just keep filling when u need it, until a fill does not get you 60+ shots anymore.

Poole

Hi, K-60

Most match PA mach pistols now have manometers (pressure-gauges) buildt into the end of the cylinder.
Some manufacturers (Pardini among others) have been reluctant to do so, because in their opinion this is the weak link in the cylinderconstruction.

Some manufacturers solve this by supplying a screw-in manometer that could be used to check the pressure efter the refill. MatchGuns do and Steyr did.
In addition to this pistols made by Morini and MatchGuns have an analog indicator that shows when time is due for a refill.

Keep in mind, though, that some manufacturers withdraws the warranty of their guns whenever a handpump is used for refilling.
Steyr states this in their instruction manuals. And with good reason.

No matter what the supliers of the handpumps are claiming, handpumping will bring condensate water into the cylinder. This could with time ruin the pressure regulators of the fine match pistols.
The simple devices intended to remove water from the air compressed by the hand pumps are not effective.

The air from compressors intended for scuba tank refilling usually have 3, and always at least 2, devices for condensate removal. This air is dryer than desert air!
Use the handpump only when absolutely necessary.
At the matches, air from scuba tanks are offered free to competitors.

Follow my advice: do not buy and use those handpumps. They are costly, and do not last long . They are prone to start leaking.

"Follow my advice: do not buy and use those handpumps. They are costly, and do not last long . They are prone to start leaking."

That's interesting...I've been using a hand pump exclusively at home for the last 3 years and have had zero problems with it – works like a champ once or twice a week every time I refill my two Morini cylinders. I also have a buddy who has used one exclusively at home for almost a decade with no problems --- with a Steyr LP1 no less. I am not aware of him EVER having a problem with his cylinders or the gun's regulator because of "moisture" from the pump. This, in spite of the fact that he lived in the humid SE USA.

Both of us do use the free Air Tanks available at matches -- sometimes we must "top off" with a pump when the tanks are low.

Dick, do you happen to owner of a shop that sells these pumps?

Your experiences are not in agreement with those of the shooting movement in Europe.
And, tell me: Why do Steyr not support their warranty when hand pumps are used, if they do no harm? Go tell the people at Steyr how perfect the pumps are. Maybe they do not know, and will be happy to get your information.

I think that you know as well as the rest of us that the pumps usually do start to leak. Or you might be the one and only owner of one that do not leak (yet).

Are all pumps created equal??

In other words, are there pumps out there we should avoid in favor of those that carry a minimal risk of damage to the AP??

I can only speculate that although Steyr may specifically discourage the use of pumps, is the company doing so simply because SOME of them might damage the gun or is it because ALL hand pumps are categorically bad for AP's.

If the latter is true, why would a reputable outfit like Pilkington even carry them??

Inquisitor, if you hung around the forum a bit more you would know that Dick Poore is an Air Force pistol team shooter and not in the airgun business.

As to Bobcat's assertions, He also does not really know of what he speaks either. I know of original Axsor pumps almost 7 years old that are still working. and there have been 3 major changes since then. the biggest problem with pump reliability is overuse.... using them to fill multiple cylinders on after another. I don't recommend filling one cylinder without stopping from dead empty. ITs best to take several breaks along the way, both for your body and to allow the pump to cool down. The continous usage of the pump creates too much heat and does blow seals. This was a big problem for the gun companies because they sold them to clubs and often you would have 5 or more people trying to fill their cylinder in a row..... and then boom, it would blow a seal.
But for individual usage, they are VERY reliable

the moisture issue is a possible concern.... but not at all if you use the mositure trap correctly. But I have personally cut open cylinders that were used for almost 3 years in humid enviroemtn without using the trap, and while I did find evidence of corrosion, it was not to a point of being a safety concern. But if you use the condesate trap on each fill, I really see no cause for concern. If you want the ultimate dry air,, then buy a Hill Pump with the optional Dry-pac, and then you have no worries whatsover... and yes, we sell them

Strange.
Why are the experiences with the Axcor pumps so much bettter in the US than in Europe?
The Axcor pumps are made up north in Sweden, and sold under different brands. The pumps sold by the major airgun manufacturers are made by Axcor, in fact.
These pumps will blow seals, you bet.

And strange too: why do you all avoid the question: "Why will Steyr not support their warranty whenever a hand pump has been used to fill their cylinders"?
If you intent to respond to this post, then please do not avoid this principal question....

I have two Steyr's LP10 and LP5 and there is nothing in either manual that says the warranty is void if you use a hand pump. I use scuba but I also have a hand pump and it works fine if you use common sense ( which I know is not always common practice).

Dear Another,
I don't recall anyone asking the question a question about Steyr warranty, nor do find such a question when I look back over the posts. For the record though since you brought it up, I went and got a copy of the owners manual from a new LP50 that just arrived a few weeks ago, and I find nothing about using a pump voiding any warranty. Actually I find just the opposite, as it lists on page 38 three acceptable methods to fill the cylinder, one with a "recharging bottle" one with a "compressor" and one with a "hand pump".

and for the record, my experiences and discussion with dealers and users at events around the world of the 3 major handpumps, the Axsor, the FX and Hill all seem to indicate pretty much the same story as I what I see in the US.

Maybe if you are having so much trouble using the pumps, I can only conclude the sole source of the problem is the user not using them in correct manner, and nothing to do with the equipment

I purchased an LP50 last year - no mention of voiding warranty for using a pump on my LP50 paperwork either.

In fact it also specifically mentions using a pump as an alternative to SCUBA

I use an Axsor pump for my Steyr LP10. It was bought when I purchased the pistol, and cost $320Australian. I usually fill the cylinder once or twice a week, after each match. When the guage showes 100 bar, but it is still in the green area on the testing guage, I fill it. It takes about 20 - 25 strokes. I am 71 years old, and am still able to use it for filling the cylinders. I admit it is not easy, though! My wife cannot use it, as she is not heavy enough to use the full stroke of the pump.
There is a drain plug in the bottom of the pump, and I drain it every 2nd week. There may be only one drop of water comes out, but that is better removed than left.
I have no maintenance problems with the pump, and find it convenient to take away with me. I only use the pump in the house, not in the garage, so the air is dryer in the room. I certainly would not carry scuba air tanks in the back of the car. Whatever method you use - use it sensibly, and it will be O.K.
"Free Air at competitions" -- half your luck! We have to pay for it here in Oz.
Alex L.