TargetTalk

Hello all! I'm a 19M, left handed left sighted shooter who has shot air rifle for 4 years, and as of yesterday I am shooting air pistol as 1.) it is less straining on my lumbar area and 2.) much cheaper. I went for my clubs' introductory course yesterday, and we had the chance to shoot a few shots in the range.

Here is my first 10 shot target, shot on a Steyr LP1.


I have been reading the advice posted here for a few months, as well as the guide posted on tenrings.uk and they have really helped! I managed to grasp the fundamentals of shooting much easier through them as compared to when I was training in school. I have some first impressions:

- The trigger is a lot lighter than what I expected. I initially thought that the trigger weight would feel heavier than the FWB 700 I used in the past, but as it turns out I activated the first stage of the trigger unknowingly as I lowered the pistol down to the aiming area. I'm glad to say that I didn't really pull the trigger; in fact I felt that most of my shots were surprise shots. I tried to hold some form of follow through, but I'm not really sure on what to take note of during the follow through stage.

- The weight of the pistol is also lighter than expected. I do weight training a few times a week, so I didn't feel sore from shooting yesterday. I feel that the front of the pistol is lighter than the back, and I might plan to get some barrel weights if I deem it necessary. I still felt some shakiness at the front of the pistol while aiming though, and most of it were sideways.

I will be heading to the range later tonight and my plan is to dryfire for 20-30 minutes, then shoot around 50-60 shots. I am tempted to shoot a 60 shot match, but I feel that setting expectations that early will not be good for the road ahead. I hope to solidify my fundamentals first, and get everything in the black consistency in the next few months if COVID does not get in our way.

Anyways, I am really excited to finally start my journey in air pistol, and I hope to hear some of the amazing advice by the experienced shooters on here!

Welcome. I wish I could give you some sage advise, but my game has been going downhill for some months, so others should chime in.

I can only offer that I would bet your high shots are from gripping the gun right at trigger break. Otherwise you are on track.

High shots can also be the result of losing focus on the front sight & looking at the target. Especially with a sub-six hold, the front sight will tend to drift up.

The best way to determine what the source of the high shots might be is whether you can call them. If you call them high, then you have an anticipation problem and you are "heeling" the pistol upward by tightening your grip at the last moment. You can't possibly call your shots if you aren't focused on your front sight, so if you can't call the high shots, that's your problem.

I am just the opposite. I use the same strip of light as my wide rear sight width (5.0mm) which is about 3cm below the bull. If my focus goes to the the bull as I break the shot, I know I'm going to get a liner 8 at 6 o'clock.

Today I convinced myself that this game is as easy as front sight, trigger press, and follow through. I had a long run of 33 shots without an 8. Tomorrow I will have to try to convince myself that is all it takes once again, but my brain will get in the way and be the weak link, as always.

The ultimate goal is to transfer the process of shooting a 10 to "muscle memory". You need to shoot a lot of 10's to do that. Then you need to get your brain out of the way.

I liken it to tying your shoes. It's a set of complex motions involving both hands, but when was the last time you screwed it up? If somebody blindfolded you and had you sit on your hands, you'd probably be hard pressed to explain to someone how to do it. If you think too hard about it, you are likely to mess it up.

When you get a good shot in training, stop and try to review all of the little details that helped to make it happen. What was your grip like? What did the sights look like? How long did you take to squeeze the trigger? How/when did you breathe? Follow through? etc.

This does two things: It helps to reinforce your shot process, and nudge it a bit closer to muscle memory. It also should provide a clue as to when to abort a shot. Once you learn what a 10 looks like and feels like as it develops, you can begin to sense when something is off. If you detect that, put the pistol down, review your shot process, and (hopefully) go back to shooting 10's.

In one of J.P. O’Connor's wonderful "On the Firing Line" articles, he said something along the lines of: "Shooting 10's is good. NOT shooting not-10's is also good."

I too am new to air pistol shooting. I`m at the other end of the age spectrum from lithium however at 63M. Thanks for all the comments and good advice you all give to new folks.

I too have a problem with throwing shots up and to the right (about 1 o`clock) as far as the 5-ring. Could this be the tense grip you all mentioned just as the trigger breaks? The match pistol weighs about 1000 grams. I have another pistol that weighs more like 1200 grams. The heavier pistol doesn`t seem to throw shots like this. It's all I can do to heft it to the target. I am wondering if there isn`t some difference in the way I grip the two pistols. I shoot both pistols an equal amount, often both on the same day.

Thanks for any advice you can send my (our) way.

I just got my second session done, and here is a link to some of the target cards I shot over the past two sessions:

https://imgur.com/gallery/WKaBYUY

Some things I realised:

- Todays session resulted in alot more flyers landing in the 2 or 3 ring towards the top of the target. My ex coach, who was there, pointed out to me that I "ride" the recoil after the shot was taken. I gave holding the gun still during follow through a try, and realised that it did get rid of my flyers. I did an upper body workout yesterday too, which couldve contributed to more drastic flyer shots probably.

- I noticed that I can quite easily call shots that were too low, as a result of aiming too low below the black. I felt that my front sight wasn't the main factor in causing wayward shots, as most of my shots landed somewhere in the black.

-Putting the flyer shots out of the way though, I would love to know what other points I can improve on the next session.

On a side note, the club guns grip doesnt fit me :( Next session I will try to ask for another gun, hopefully the one I used in the original post, so that I can hopefully solve some of the grip issues I'm having. There arent many left handers in the world anyway, so finding the right gun shouldnt be too troublesome.

Anyways, my ex coach told me that I am doing quite well for a beginner, and with more practice I might have potential. She also offered me the chance to volunteer teaching children on how to shoot pistol and rifle, which I would really love to do if my schedule permits!

Oh another question- since I don't have a gun and I cant bring a gun back home, what will be the best way for me to dryfire? So far I am using 1kg weights for improving endurance, but I'm sure there are other ways to practice other aspects of pistol shooting at home without one!

Bandgap wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:51 pm I too am new to air pistol shooting. I`m at the other end of the age spectrum from lithium however at 63M. Thanks for all the comments and good advice you all give to new folks.

I too have a problem with throwing shots up and to the right (about 1 o`clock) as far as the 5-ring. Could this be the tense grip you all mentioned just as the trigger breaks? The match pistol weighs about 1000 grams. I have another pistol that weighs more like 1200 grams. The heavier pistol doesn`t seem to throw shots like this. It's all I can do to heft it to the target. I am wondering if there isn`t some difference in the way I grip the two pistols. I shoot both pistols an equal amount, often both on the same day.

Thanks for any advice you can send my (our) way.

How far you toss the shots can depend a lot on how you hold the pistol and how the grip fits you. Also, the different trigger pulls can affect whether you are more likely to get a "surprise shot", which eliminates anticipation effects. Think about constantly increasing pressure on the trigger. It WILL go off at some point. Do NOT think about firing the shot. The slight mental "distance" between those two approaches can make a huge difference.

The next time you handle the pistols, pretend you are going to dry fire. Do everything you normally would to grip the pistol, and line up the sights. Then tighten your grip a little, and watch which way the front sight move & how much.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:28 am The slight mental "distance" between those two approaches can make a huge difference.

Thanks for the advice. Concerning the above quote, how does one move from stop-start trigger pull (thinking) to steady increase trigger pull (not thinking)?

Hundreds (if not thousands) of dry fires is the surest approach. As soon as you add an element of "outcome" to the process, the brain will try to mess thing up. You can also practice on a blank card. Some people turn the target around, but then they can't resist "scoring" the other side...

Start by just closing your eyes, and practice the trigger squeeze until it becomes natural.

I don't recall how long it took me to learn to tie my shoelaces without thinking about it, but I suspect is was close to a year. Based on that, figure 365 dry fires...

My third training session today; came in with the intention of getting a consistent surprise shot by 1. focusing on front sight and 2. constant pressure on trigger.

Here are some of the targets im proud of:





(don't mind the difference in size)

I dont think there are any flier shots due to jerking the trigger, but I need the more experienced eyes of others to help me analyse the target. :)

Your last target has several high shots. I suspect you were tiring, and forgetting to stay focused on the front sight.

I can recommend two things:

1) Put an orange chalk mark on your front sight to help keep your focus there.

2) Investigate adding correction to your vision. +0.5D or +0.75D will move your relaxed focus closer to the front sight, making it easier to maintain focus over the course of a match. Depending on your vision situation, you can get clip-on "computer" lenses for regular glasses, or safety glasses with the added correction. Reading glasses often start at +1.0D, and are typically too strong.

I've seen both approaches make a huge difference for many beginning shooters. Combining the two also works.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:23 am Your last target has several high shots. I suspect you were tiring, and forgetting to stay focused on the front sight.

I can recommend two things:

1) Put an orange chalk mark on your front sight to help keep your focus there.

2) Investigate adding correction to your vision. +0.5D or +0.75D will move your relaxed focus closer to the front sight, making it easier to maintain focus over the course of a match. Depending on your vision situation, you can get clip-on "computer" lenses for regular glasses, or safety glasses with the added correction. Reading glasses often start at +1.0D, and are typically too strong.

I've seen both approaches make a huge difference for many beginning shooters. Combining the two also works.

The chalk will be much easier to get, but will the chalk be removed easily after each session? I'll have to hunt down a pair of clip on lenses or get a new prescription altogether- I'm struggling to see afar with my current pair from time to time.

" I'll have to hunt down a pair of clip on lenses or get a new prescription altogether- I'm struggling to see afar with my current pair from time to time."

Do it! When you can buy a pair of prescription glasses for $30 or $40, or (if you don't have astigmatism) cheap from the Dollar Store, you'll save yourself a lot of headaches.

Just put a strip of matte cellophane tape on the inside of the lens of your non-aiming eye and it will be about as good as it gets.

lithiumiioxide wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:40 pm The chalk will be much easier to get, but will the chalk be removed easily after each session? I'll have to hunt down a pair of clip on lenses or get a new prescription altogether- I'm struggling to see afar with my current pair from time to time.

Are you using a club pistol? I'd just leave it on, the other users might like it. If people fuss, you can easily remove it with with a swipe of your thumb. The orange colored chalk tends to be soft, and wipes off easily. White & yellow chalk can be harder, and over time might abrade the finish. I've used the orange chalk trick for close to 40 years, and have never observed any signs of damage.

You just need a tiny mark. Don't try to coat the whole thing. Your brain can learn to ignore an orange rectangle juts as easily as a black one. You want a small splodge, just big enough to give the sight some character. If you find that you are tuning it out because you've gotten used to it, change it.

brent375hh wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:26 pm I am just the opposite. I use the same strip of light as my wide rear sight width (5.0mm) which is about 3cm below the bull. If my focus goes to the the bull as I break the shot, I know I'm going to get a liner 8 at 6 o'clock.

Today I convinced myself that this game is as easy as front sight, trigger press, and follow through. I had a long run of 33 shots without an 8. Tomorrow I will have to try to convince myself that is all it takes once again, but my brain will get in the way and be the weak link, as always.

This is really the core of Kyudo. :-)
And now I shall wait for our dear William to chime in.........

"And now I shall wait for our dear William to chime in........."

Silly man! It's SWEET William.

Im back!

Today was an off day so I managed to spend the whole day at the range. Caught up with a previous coach of mine who told me more about shot process. He suggested to slow down and control the movement of the pistol from the top to my aiming area, while mantaining an increase in pressure on the trigger. This was different from what I usually did, which was to drop the pistol quickly into my aiming area and then increase trigger pressure.

I'm glad to say that my groups got better with less flyer shots :)





As of today, I have been shooting pistol for 1 week. I felt like after today I made a small breakthrough and I'll continue this effort if time persists. I hope by the end of the year I'll be able to tighten my group into the 8 ring, and if I have a chance I'll do a match to see where my standard is at.

An unlucky day today at the range...

I found out that I accidentally made duplicate bookings at the range today, so I lost some money :/
The club is down to one left handed pistol, and unfortunately the person using the pistol was of a different height and stature than me, so the sights he had set were incompatible for me. So, I started my first 10 shots, feeling confident that most landed in the black. When I saw the target, I was shocked that the group was not where I was expecting! I even got a 0 (well, there's a first time for everything, isnt there?)

This was my first 30 shots trying to adjust the sights:



And my next 65 shots, after many many clicks:



Being unlucky aside, I noticed that there is a significant group in the white @ 6 o' clock, and I couldn't call those shots. I say that I wasn't focusing well on the front sight and was aiming WAY too long to cause those shots. On the bright side, Im slowly getting more 9's, which is a good thing. Just gotta solidify my shot process, and get some orange chalk. ;)

On a side note, thank you Rover for suggesting the clear tape- It's way more comfortable to see and use than the cheap blinder I used to use!