TargetTalk

Amongst shooters, it appears that most use a two way breathing process before releasing the shot. That is, a breath raising the pistol sighting above the target, exhaling and lowering into the target area followed by a second breath and partial exhale to the point of releasing the shot.

A friend who does archery suggested using a one breath method which she and most top archers apparently use. It would for a shooter be a deep inhale belly breath raising the pistol above the target; lowering on exhale to the sighting area and releasing the shot. Then follow through, of course. This clearly results in less hold time with the pistol. If one lacks muscle strength, this would appear to have advantages. Even for the non-strength challenged, I would think that over a course of 60 shots there might well be less fatigue toward the end of the event resulting on higher score late in the match.

I guess my question is why shooters, especially top air pistol shooters, don't use one way breathing as do the top archers.

I wonder if the difference is in the time on holding?

The pistol shooters sometimes hold trying to break a shot for 10 or more seconds.
When good shooters shoot a recurve, they usually break the shot in about 5 seconds from the draw.

Everything I've read as to shooting refers to holding for five or six seconds in the trigger phase. It's just that most shooters don't begin that phase until the second deep, belly breath.

I think that's right as to recurve. I'll have to time it, but it seems to be closer to what shooting coaches refer to single breath technique. With two breath you're supporting the weight of the air pistol roughly twice as long. My aging arm-wrist-hand has difficulty doing that. I really don't understand the purpose of the first hold and then a second breath to drop to the target and fire.

I go straight for the sub six. I don't think my bad shots are from not starting higher.

brent375hh wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:20 pm I go straight for the sub six. I don't think my bad shots are from not starting higher.

How high is high? lol Watching the ISSF YouTube channel, some shooters go to a very high point before lowering toward the aiming area. I try to go just above the black and lower with an exhale. Then the question is how much to exhale. A poster here a couple of weeks ago mentioned an Asian training video in which the shooter exhaled completely. I tried that and found that my hold deteriorated much more quickly. Retaining 40% to 50% of the deep breath keeps at least some amount of O2 going into the system.

I'll take a look at archers tonight on YouTube. IRRC, compound bow archers seem to hold a bit longer than recurve. Of course compound archers have a trigger mechanism for releasing their shot which recurve archers aren't permitted to use. Might be more difficult in recurve to hold longer than they do.

Not sure what the draw weight on a recurve bow is, but im guessing it's a lot more than an air pistol. Holding it longer requires a lot more strength and energy than holding an air pistol, hence the desire to release quicker.

X (capital X) year ago when I was trained for a college team, the routine was: deep inhale while raising above target (up to you how much higher), almost full exhale while lowering to sub-6, starting pull / first phase at the same time. It worked well, but perhaps for young and strong lungs, hands and eyes?

robjob wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:45 am Not sure what the draw weight on a recurve bow is, but im guessing it's a lot more than an air pistol. Holding it longer requires a lot more strength and energy than holding an air pistol, hence the desire to release quicker.

Interesting issue that you raise. I'm not sure about the comparison and what role draw weight plays in the archer's hold time.

I did look at some world class matches with recurve and compound. The hold by compound archers tended to be perhaps two seconds longer than with recurve, but all were under six seconds.

Two summers ago I considered trying recurve but didn't due to eye dominance issues. I shoot pistol and rifle left handed and I'm left eye dominant. With archery, I'm right handed as I am with golf and batting in baseball, although I throw left handed. The sighting issues with archery, shooting right handed with left eye dominance, were not worth dealing with for me. Perhaps I should take up cross-bow? :-)

JEEZ, LOUISE! WHEN DID ARCHERY BECOME AN ISSF PISTOL DISCIPLINE? Yes, I AM shouting.

Returning to the thread's title, if I may be permitted to paraphrase Emil Faber:
Breathing is good.

william wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:28 am JEEZ, LOUISE! WHEN DID ARCHERY BECOME AN ISSF PISTOL DISCIPLINE? Yes, I AM shouting.

Returning to the thread's title, if I may be permitted to paraphrase Emil Faber:
Breathing is good.

There are aspects of shooting and archery that are similar such as breathing.

Yes, breathing is good. What some of us are trying to have is an intelligent discussion regarding single or double breathing in shooting. Single is discouraged by many coaches, particularly in Europe. The question I have (which is why I started this thread) is what the advantage is, real or perceived, in air pistol shooting to not using the single breath model that is used in another shooting sport that also focuses on breathing, sighting and release.

Also, as a practitioner of mindfulness meditation, I've always been interested in the parallels between Zen and the art of archery and Zen as it can be transferred and applied to air pistol shooting. What we do in preparing to begin the process of raising the air pistol is very much what is done in Shinay Meditation, to wit, focus on deep breathing, eyes open but unfocused (as to the target with shooting and archery during the initial raising of the instrument) and partial exhalation into the target zone with release.

There is much that can be learned about breathing and shooting be the instrument an archer's bow or an air pistol, dear Grasshopper. :-)

A single breath structure.....
https://targetshooting.ca/breath-control-pistol/

"Breathing causes movement. As such, your minimum arc of movement will be exaggerated while you’re breathing. Consequently, you cannot shoot and breathe simultaneously.

Your eyes need oxygen to see the target properly. Your body will fight for air as it uses up its supply. The symptoms of oxygen deprivation adversely affect your control over your hold and your sight alignment and picture. You need to have oxygen in your system to shoot well.

Since the two statements are at odds with each other, you need to reach a compromise between shooting and breathing. You need to make sure that you have lots of oxygen in your system; such that, you can pause breathing long enough to get your shot to break within your minimum arc of movement. Here’s one method for slow-fire shooting:
1. Once you are in position and ready to fire, take two or three slow, deep breaths. This makes sure that your system is fully oxygenated. Make sure that you do not hyperventilate by breathing fast and shallow.
2. As you raise the pistol, breathe slowly in (inhale).
3. As you settle into your shooting position, you exhale a quarter or half breath. This keeps some oxygen in your lungs. At this point, you’re at a natural respiratory pause between breathing in and out. Your body is accustomed to a pause at this stage.
4. During this pause, perfect your sight picture and initiate your trigger squeeze.
5. Complete your follow through after the shot, and then exhale as you lower your pistol.
6. After the shot, ensure normal breathing takes place...."

From the Bibliography page at TargetShooting Canada
https://targetshooting.ca/bibliography/
Many good resources relating to all aspects of shooting.

Relating to archery:
Herrigel, Eugen. Zen in the Art of Archery. New York: Vintage Books, 1999.
Hoff, Feliks. Kyodo: The Way of the Bow. London: Shambhala Publishing Limited, 2002.
Kushner, Kenneth. One Arrow, One Life: Zen, Archery, Enlightenment. Boston: Tuttle Publishing, 2000.
Sogen, Omori. An Introduction to Zen Training. Boston: Tuttle Publishing, 2001.

Many will know the Herrigel book. The Hoff volume looks very interesting and possibly a useful parallel reference for shooting air pistol. I've ordered it. If nothing else, a way to spend some pandemic time.......


This title brought to mind the Trappist Monk, Thomas Merton--Seven Storey Mountains and a bad pun about trap shooting.
Suinn, Richard M. Seven Steps to Peak Performance: The Mental Training Manual for Athletes. Toronto: Hans Huber Publishers, 1986.