TargetTalk

I was approached by a man who was coaching a bunch of Junior air rifle shooters and was looking to move into air pistol with some of them.

He wanted to know what air pistols he should get. He said that money was not a big problem, but I knew he had no clue as to the cost of top of the line guns. I told him that the FAS 6004 might be a good start if he could get them tweaked. (I suspect there are a few tweakers here.)

Anything I should tell him about other choices ? (used would be OK) I also told him to put a classified ad here.

The FAS is a good option if the kids are big enough to cock them for 60 shots. My club started a junior program & bought Crosman "target'" 2300T's, and they are junk.

In terms of new stuff, the next step up is the Hammerli AP20. Neal Stepp gave us a good price when we bought 26 for the college team I help coach. Walther wouldn't give him a discount, but his regular price was lower than anyone's else's "quantity" price.

The AP20's are very good pistols, especially for a team situation where the adjustable & reversible grip is a real benefit. For small kids (or small women), I've got 3D print designs for thicker palm shelf's.

Thanks! I was hoping you would reply. I had heard of the Hammerlis, but had no knowledge or experience with them.

How are they holding up?

The AP20 is probably the best starting point by far... and all things considered is from a different universe by comparison to the 6004.

If you want to deter rather than encourage new shooters then have them buy pistols that from the factory tear holes in targets and require post purchase modifications that are not achievable by mere mortals. Even then it provides a “marginal at best” pistol that still requires cranking after every shot.

Add to this the fact that you have already been told that “ money was not a big problem” and you must look to a pcp pistol with the AP20 as first step on the ladder.

Rover wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:15 pm Thanks! I was hoping you would reply. I had heard of the Hammerlis, but had no knowledge or experience with them.

How are they holding up?

We haven't had any major issues. We bought 8 spare cylinders, for a total of 34. I think 3 of them had leaks, and were replaced. We also had several pistols that had problems with the trigger "locking up". I forget the details, but once you get them freed up, they become less & less prone to the problem, and then they are fine.

Details are here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60896&p=295325

I have heard some complaints that the velocity setting can drift down, but we haven't seen that (yet). I took baseline data on all of them shooting 7 grain RWS Basics after about 3 months, and the lowest I measured for 10 shots out of 26 pistols was 479 fps. The highest was 536 fps. I calculated the maximum vertical spread based on the high & low velocity for each pistol, and the worst of them was ~ 1.6 mm. Most of them were less than half that.

I've been using an AP20 for the last year or so. No issues with reliability. The plastic grip is a little on the thin side for adult hands but the adjustability is very good. It's not too heavy for junior use either.

The Pardini KID is a little bit more expensive than the Hämmerli, but of a more substantial build quality.
And, the grips, etc. can be upgraded along the way.
All they tend to need is new seals after thousands of shots. They're easy to work on, and Pardini support is great.
Having overseen a junior program myself for a few years, I personally think a bit more money spent up front to save headaches of chronic mechanical issues is well worth it. More time to focus on training, coaching, arranging matches, communicating with parents etc....

Jim

Pardini USA wants $1250 for the Kid. They might cut you a deal for a quantity, but we paid less than $750 for the Hammerli AP20's. With 26 samples, I've seen nothing that indicates poor build quality or materials that would make me question our decision. Several local clubs with junior programs have also generally had good luck with them.

I don't know of very many people shooting Pardini Kids around here, but I know of at least one that had to be sent back for repair.

In our junior program, we have 12 crossman 1702s, 8 or 9 ap20s, 4 pardini kids, 3k10s, 1 k12, and 3 walther lp400s.

For the beginners, the crossmans are a tank, The receiver sight that is sold with it has a glass jaw so they were replaced with ones for a ruger mk2. The dove tail has to be recut on either the gun or sight to fit, but once done, they are pretty solid guns that will hold the 10 ring. They need maintainance, but I've had mine for well over 5 years with only simple seals needing replacement. Its a chore, but straight forward. They are heavy guns and my "intro" group shoots them off a rest in the PPP supported position. Triggers are serviceable, but not stellar. Again, for 7 year olds and up, they are very durable.

The ap20s colored barrel sleeve is a PITA as there is a detent in the barrel on both the reciever and the sight side. If you don't get it in right, the sight can be out of the detent and will work loose. The ap20s also had some random screws loose on the loading gate, when recieved (in different batches) but a touch of locktite fixes that. I like that both the can be converted to left handed loading gates. The triggers on the ap20s are good enough to shoot well into the mid 500s so no complaints there.

I wouldn't pay $1200 for the kids, grips suck, trigger faces are stamped metal and have much more limited windows of adjustment. Yes, they are upgradable, but $200 for grips, $200 for the adjustable trigger face assembly, and you've still got a kid size gun for over new full size k10 price. My choice was to go with AP20 and move them into higher end guns when they are capable of holding them. If I run out of high end guns, all the ap20s really need is a grip, and they are compatible with current gen walther grips.

The ap20 also has a rotatable cylinder attachment so ballance can be adjusted by moving the cylinder from a vertical to horizontal position.

"7 year olds and up"

Dang, I need to get to work on my daughter.

John,

I thought you would have started as soon as she could stand!