What makes a pistol more "forgiving" than another?

[gimgim]

In some older thread I remember reading that a Toz is more "forgiving" that a Morini (Gwhite?)
I have been using both and the Morini is adjusted to have roughly the same front to rear sight as the Toz.
Both have Rink grips, same ammo ($3 Fiocchi, from the same lot).
If you look at the pictures I posted in "Monthly FP league, June 2019" (please try not to laugh :-) ) you can see what I mean.
The Morini has a nicer group, but any mistake is 4 or lower. With the Toz even for me is hard to go below the 4.

[Gwhite]

Nobody knows... I spent the better part of a year trying to get a Pardini SP to match the balance, weight, trigger pull, grip etc. of my Benelli. No matter what I did with any quantifiable parameters, I could never get the Pardini to shoot as well for me as the Benelli. Shots that might be a 7 or an 8 with the Benelli were 6's with the Pardini.

I am not the only shooter who has reported that the Benellis are mysteriously "more forgiving" than a variety of other Standard pistols.

I have never shot a Toz, but I found both the Pardini PGP-75 and the Morini free pistols to be "more forgiving" than the Hammerli 160. In fact, my personal best (a 535) was fired with a PGP-75.

[gimgim]

Thanks Gwhite.

Given your experience, if you were in my shoes, would you continue training with the Toz to bring the group together, or insist with the Morini and learn to make less mistakes?
For context, this is just a hobby, I will never compete, and working on the technical aspects of the pistol is part of the fun.

[Gwhite]

Forget about scores for a moment. Which one do you enjoy shooting the most? I really like the grip and the electronic trigger on the Morini.

I think I would alternate between them. Shoot one one day and the other the next. You may find that the Morini will demand improved technique that will translate to smaller groups with the Toz.

[gimgim]

> Which one do you enjoy shooting the most?

It's complicated....
The Morini feels better but the Toz (I have two actually, one never fired and bought as a backup before the Morini) is the one I will keep hacking.

I guess I'll have to keep them both, as you suggest, and alternate. I should stop looking at the shots though because the mistakes with the Morini feel frustrating and demoralizing.

[deadeyedick]

Shoot the Toz at present and then graduate to the Morini in time.

[crankythunder]

Good Morning.

Not sure I can comment on free pistols, I have only shot a pardini k22 enough to feel comfortable with it.

With bullseye pistols though, I own a Pardini SP, a FWB 093, a couple of Model 41's, and a couple of revolvers. I have also shot Benelli's and Walthers a lot as well.

Personally, I shoot the pardini SP the best both slow fire and rapid fire. Even better then the K22 which is my second most favorite or better achieving. Third best is a S&W Combat Masterpiece revolver with a 4 inch barrel, then the K-22 S&W 6 inch barreled Masterpiece.


If you notice, the firearms that I shoot the best do not have a magazine in the grip. YOu see, I have size large hands but find that the O93 and Model 41 have a larger grip such that I struggle to manipulate the trigger as well as I do with the other firearms. I also think that the length of the barrel has a impact as well, a longer barrel is less forgiving then a shorter barrel.


Of course, I am a sub olympic class shooter or in other words a mere mortal that does pretty good but not quite master level.


Regards,

Cranky

[Gwhite]

At least for some, the better a shooter you become, the less the equipment matters. Don Nygord set a free pistol range record (558) at MIT in 1980 that still stands. He shot it with a long barrel Model 41 when his Hammerli 152 electronic trigger died.

[David M]

One of the most "unforgiving" pistols was the S&W model 52.
If you did everything right it shot X rings, but any trigger error it shot in the 8-7 ring.
The reason was the very high barrel line above the hand.
Forgiving pistols usually have a really good feel and fit.
Fit and feel should be the final reasons in selecting your new pistol.

[scerir]

BTW I remember that Di Donna (his record was 572 I guess) used to say that Toz was better than Morini. In general pistols having low barrels and grips with excessive angles are not forgiving, imo.

[shaky hands]

"In some older thread I remember reading that a Toz is more "forgiving" that a Morini (Gwhite?)"

This line is actually from an article of the late coach of the Soviet pistol team Anatoliy Poddubny. He called Morini "a hindrance of the free pistol discipline" and lamented that it conquered the market. Poddubny admitted that he did not know why Toz-35 is a forgiving pistol.

[gimgim]

On vacation abroad until Aug, but as soon as I am back I will start measuring all these from the two.
Thanks!
G.

[Elmas]

. I should stop looking at the shots though because the mistakes with the Morini feel frustrating and demoralizing

Mistakes are part of the shooting discipline . Only the Ransom Rest is infallible .

The whole object to most of us , is to try and try again to avoid mistakes... The perfectly executed shot that lands where it should is pleasurable not least on account of its rarity value. An imperfectly executed shot that lands in the ten ring does not give the same satisfaction .

[sparky]

I would guess several factors including but not limited to the following. All of these likely have the *tiniest* affect individually, but might make a larger difference cumulatively...sort of like stacking tolerances:

1. Sight radius. For a given perceived misalignment of the sights, the gun with the longer sight radius will deviate less from your intended point of impact.

2. Barrel length. On one hand, to a certain extent, longer barrels tend to stabilize bullets better. On the other hand, longer time in the barrel means more time for a shooter to potentially move the gun and affect the point of impact before the bullet leaves the barrel...note that 10m air rifles use "bloop tubes."

3. Lock time. The time from when the trigger activates the sear to the time the primer is struck. The longer the lock time, the more time for a shooter to potentially move the gun and affect the point of impact before the bullet leaves the barrel.

[gimgim]

@sparky
You can see from the picture in my last post that I have tried to move the bloop tube on the Morini to (roughly) match the length of the Toz barrel.
The front and rear sights have also been machined to match.
Could the lock time for an electronic trigger be substantially slower than the mechanical one in the Toz? And if this was the cause of the different behavior, wouldn't the Morini have a large group overall? (see Morini - botton vs Toz - top pictures)

@Elmas
> Mistakes are part of the shooting discipline

Of course, but there is the nice objectivity of the numerical score providing feedback on how (and if) we are improving.
There are two factors at play here, first, the curiosity of two pistols apparently very similar that exhibit a different behavior.
This HAS to boil down to one or more physical measurable quantities.
The second, on whether one behavior may be preferred over the other when learning the discipline (sure, everything is a matter of preferences, yet some are or maybe more preferred than others).

[Mike M.]

Vibration and motion of the lockwork on the shot release may have something to do with it. I've got a Morini, Toz, and a Steyr FP. The latter is interesting. There's a distinct "clunk" on the shot release. And the Steyr is notoriously unforgiving.

[Gwhite]

I think one of the important parameters (which is also hard to measure) is the "moment of inertia". If you model the pistol as sticking out from a pivot point (like the wrist), the higher the moment of inertia, the less it will rotate for a given twitch on the shooter's part, and the less it will move in response to internal forces (firing mechanism thrashing about), and recoil.

Just from looking at them, the large muzzle piece on the Morini should give an advantage in this regard, even though it's made out of aluminum. However, if you believe Mr. Poddubny, then the exact opposite is true.

I spent two years trying to quantify the mechanical properties of the Benelli MP90S that made it more "forgiving" than my Pardini SP. My daughter had commandeered my MP90S, so I had it available to study, but not compete with. I finally gave up and just bought another Benelli. My scores immediately improved.

[David M]

In some older thread I remember reading that a Toz is more "forgiving" that a Morini (Gwhite?)
I have been using both and the Morini is adjusted to have roughly the same front to rear sight as the Toz.
Both have Rink grips, same ammo ($3 Fiocchi, from the same lot).
If you look at the pictures I posted in "Monthly FP league, June 2019" (please try not to laugh :-) ) you can see what I mean.
The Morini has a nicer group, but any mistake is 4 or lower. With the Toz even for me is hard to go below the 4.

With groups like that, why are you even bothering to compare pistols.
The shots outside the black are wild indeed and no pistol will forgive these shots.
Pick just one pistol and train with it until you can keep the group inside the 7 ring, then you will have mastered Free pistol enough
to start wondering about which pistol is better.
What makes a forgiving pistol is balance in hand, CofG, fit, feel, trigger release and feedback.
The secret to Free pistol is.....that there is no secret, just lots of training, hard work and long hours on the range with the right mental game.

[sparky]

@sparky
You can see from the picture in my last post that I have tried to move the bloop tube on the Morini to (roughly) match the length of the Toz barrel.
The front and rear sights have also been machined to match.
Could the lock time for an electronic trigger be substantially slower than the mechanical one in the Toz? And if this was the cause of the different behavior, wouldn't the Morini have a large group overall? (see Morini - botton vs Toz - top pictures)

@Elmas
> Mistakes are part of the shooting discipline

Of course, but there is the nice objectivity of the numerical score providing feedback on how (and if) we are improving.
There are two factors at play here, first, the curiosity of two pistols apparently very similar that exhibit a different behavior.
This HAS to boil down to one or more physical measurable quantities.
The second, on whether one behavior may be preferred over the other when learning the discipline (sure, everything is a matter of preferences, yet some are or maybe more preferred than others).

With the identical sight radius, shorter barrel, and I would assume same or quicker lock time, I'd think the Morini would be more forgiving...go figure.

[scerir]

Vibration and motion of the lockwork on the shot release may have something to do with it. I've got a Morini, Toz, and a Steyr FP. The latter is interesting. There's a distinct "clunk" on the shot release. And the Steyr is notoriously unforgiving.

It seems that pistols with very low barrel, like Steyr FP, are "unforgiving". http://www.shooting-ua.com/arm-books/arm_book_82.htm scroll down to see pics of pistols with very low barrel (but not competitive!).