TargetTalk

Fellows. My current handstop on my H&R M12 is "killing" me. Its a cylindrical unit, approximately 1 1/2" in dia and about 2" long(tall). I shoot strictly prone with the gun and after 20 minutes or so the web of my hand (thumb to pointy finger) hurts like heck.

I've got a "wide" old style Freeland HS but it seems to be "too" wide and seems to spread my thumb and pointy finger apart but it does fit into that web area well.

Any suggestions on what to "look" for in a handstop?

I shoot NRA/CMP XTC courses but use a AR SR with a web sling and of course there is no HS.

Thanks,

ptf18

OK, first question, what glove do you wear, and how old is it? Even the best handstop will hurt if the glove is too thin, whether new or from wear. I find the harder gloves, like the Kurt Thune Solid, Kustermann Mod 5, and Monard Pro liner spread the pressure better than softer Top-Grip rubber. Also don't expect a glove to last forever; my Monard is almost due for replacement after three years of hard use.

In terms of the size, 1-1/2in isn't huge for a handstop, but it's not small either. The MEC is much smaller in the middle, and the Anschutz 4752 and Gemini are about 1-1/4in across. If you have medium-small hands 1-1/2in may be too large. Unless you are deeply attached to your stop, filing it smaller may help.

However, from your description of where the pain is, I wonder if the position of the handstop is a factor. Almost all rifles place the handstop directly under the barrel*, but this isn't the best place as it draws the hand too far under the stock (or encourages a bent wrist). A better position is a little to the left (right handed shooter), so the stop sits comfortably by the thumb web, and the weight (barrel) is over the heel of the hand. Modern stops, like those I mentioned above, are adjustable sideways. An alternative is to re-inlet the handstop rail about 1/4in to the left.

The Freeland stop is slightly assymetrical, and will position your hand well, to the left of the bore. I've used one before, and it is wide. However it is a big lump of metal, and can be easily filed to a more comfortable size.

Belated, what I'd look for in a handstop are:

Size - fits well in the V of my thumb, but doesn't splay out the thumb or squash my index knuckle.

Offset - can be offset sideways so the stop is properly placed when the rifle is on the heel of my hand, and my wrist is straight.

Depth - slightly taller than my hand, so there isn't too much pressure on the back of my hand.

Locking - sturdy quick release.

Tim: Thank you for your input.

My current full finger glove is a 3 month old Gehmann that I purchased new. I really don't like the tightish fit around my wrist as its a PIA to put on and take off.

I have to agree with your point about the HS 'issue" of the directly under the bore. Mine does have a slight tendency to do what you mention.

Given your suggestions, do you have a couple brand names I could look at. Or perhaps I should start "grinding" on my old Freeland HS.

Thanks,

ptf18

If you're buying new, the MEC and Anschutz 4752 are popular. Both can be offset, and made deeper, so the bottom edge doesn't dig into your hand. I like the System Gemini, as it has a little more sideways adjustment than the MEC, but it is more expensive. A club mate had a Gehmann 845, which was effective, but a little fiddly to adjust. Another has a Tec-Hro, which I think is also fiddly, and find the locking screws to be slightly delicate.

Filing the Freeland is cheaper than a new stop for sure, so if you aren't worried about resale value, and have the time, why not have a go?

A new-ish Gehmann glove should be OK for padding. If your competition rules allow, you could add a velcro closure at the wrist if the elastic doesn't open enough. Most gloves will fit in the same way, although Thune gloves are a different pattern, and a little less tight. Personally I don't like the old open-ended mitts, as the cuff never seems to fit nicely around the jacket sleeve, and the mitt itself is a little too soft for my taste.

Thanks Tim. I looked at a couple of the different H/S I have. Installed them onto the rail and got into the prone position with them (no glove). As my hand slid up to contact them I "see" that they first make contact with my knuckle of my pointy finger. At this point the rifle is "laying" in my hand and my wrist is "straight".

BUT.... if I continue to "push" my hand forward (as what would happen if I was slung up ) the H/S slides (actually its my hand that slides bc its moving forward) "deeper" into the V that is formed between my thumb and pointy finger. When this happens I see that my hand "rotates C/W under and upward the R/H side of the stock and my wrist "bends around" to do so. Thus the rifle "lays" more onto the fleshy base of my thumb rather than in my hand.

35 years of prone shooting and never paid attention to this other than I could tell that the rifle (rilfes equipt with a H/S) had a tendency to "roll" and I didnt realize that it was the H/S design.

Looking at the pictures of the H/S you suggested I now can "see" how they are adjustable in which this situation is minimized.

Do you think me "hacking" on my Freeland H/S will "cure" this "issue"?

Thus the rifle "lays" more onto the fleshy base of my thumb rather than in my hand.

This is exactly as it should be, and helps moderate (if not eliminate) wrist pain which comes from the hand gradually bending down when the rifle is in the palm of the hand.

Jensen & Sons made a smaller handstop, which was adjustable for right or left handed shooters, and which was much more comfortable for shooters with smaller hands (juniors in our case). You might try to find a used one by advertising on the Trading Post.

ptf18 wrote:Looking at the pictures of the H/S you suggested I now can "see" how they are adjustable in which this situation is minimized.

I love my Gemini handstop because it doesn't cause my hand to "rotate" under the rifle. I actually hurt my left wrist joint trying to rotate it under. But with my Gemini handstop I have no such problems. I adjust it approx 10mm to the left and the rifle just sits perfectly in position without any pain in my wrist and hand.
As a note, the newer design Gemini handstop's seem to have a longer stem which the sling buckle plugs into which mine doesn't have.
Cheers Martin

I also own an H&R M12, along with two Anschutz Match 54's. Please bear in mind that the M12 uses a handstop rail that is dimensionally different than that used on the Anschutz. I use the Anschutz 4751 handstop on my Match 54s and my fullbore prone rifle, all of which have the "Anschutz"-style rail. The 4751 will NOT fit on the M12 which I believe uses the "Winchester"-style handstop rail. So, your alternatives may be limited. I use an alloy Freeland-style handstop on my M12. Unfortunately, I cannot offer an alternative suggestion for you....

Mike

Mike_P. Good info. Can/Could the "sliding" part (stud???) of the "foreign" H/S be "ground down" to fit into the "american" rail that is on the m12? I was out to the range this morning and again found my current H/S causing the "issues" that Martin describes.

I was just going to order something "new" and then found your posting. Glad I kept my $$$ in my pocket till I get a reply. Saw a young lady at the range also shooting SB. Had a MEC H/S and she allowed me to study it for a second. I see that there is a scale on it that show the left or right angle that one can set the H/S to.

In looking at my Anschutz H/S, I do not see how the T-nut could be modified to allow it to fit the M12 rail, unfortunately, as it's a pretty elaborate piece - not just a simple T-stud as found on the common, round knurled H/S. There might be other designs out there that could be modified to fit; I don't know. Maybe another forum member could chime in here. Good luck!

Mike

Mikey_P Thanks for your efforts. I'm going to order a "Freeland" style unit from Champion Shooters Supply. The cost is $40 and see how it "fits" my hand. Heck I've spent more on "gun stuff" that occupies my hobbyroom shelves.

Thanks all.

ptf18

If you really want a European handstop, you could replace the Winchester rail with an Anschutz. However I'd wait until after experimenting with the Freeland.

At the risk of teaching my Grandmother to suck eggs, don't just grind away both sides. The Freeland us biased to the left a little; you want to keep this. Remove material from the right (finger side), to make space for your index knuckle.

Tim S. Thanks....good to know. I was hoping this $40 H/S is bias to the left as I "think" that's a "issue" I'm having. On my AR Service Rifle which I use in NRA/CMP events, there is no H/S. On a coulpe other Match rifles the H/S is just a 1/4" thick maybe 1" round knurled knob which the QD sling swivel "clicks" into. So the use of my current H/S just brought this "issue" to my attention.

Fellows: Been months since I originally posted about my H/S "issue" and wanted to post some follow up after shooting a 1200 metric match.... first time ever. Also the second time out with the "new" H/S.

Bottom line.... whatever "grinding" on the new $40 H/S to get it to fit my support hand better....worked. No hand soreness and my hand seems to fit around the H/S comfortably.

I don't shoot Smallbore....enough..... but REALLY enjoyed today's match. Metric targets are....tough.

I really need to practice position work as I found that my neck/shoulders were really "bothering" me after firing about 15 rounds on a stage. The last 5 rounds for score were...."painful".

The lack of pain in your hand is good.

Pain in the neck and shoulders is not good. It would be sensible to assess things before you need medical attention. Common issues are excess sling tension skewing your shoulders, and the fit of the stock. Remember your shoulders should make a nice natural T with your spine. A solid prone position needs sling tension, but you can ratchet it too tight. In terms of the stock, cheekpiece height/shape and the height of the sights are factors. Fitting yourself around a rifle can hurt.

(a) have you considered the width of the stock above the handstop? I filed (and made more narrow) the stock immediately above the handstop. It was a big help. my hand now fits much better. (b) is the handstop in the correct place for the elevation of the target? all things being equal, and assuming you're shooting prone targets, the position of the handstop is determined by the target elevation.... meaning if you're aiming "uphill," the handstop will be further back. If you're aiming "downhill," the handstop will be further forward. It's a matter of comfort !! If you're leaving the handstop in the same place for everything, I'd be questioning that.

ptf18,

Had similar experiences but not that much pain -- just too much discomfort. Tried about 4 or 5 hand stops then realized needed one more narrow than what had tried but still long. Anyway, got the Champion's Choice CC2525 ($27.50), got a machinist buddy to reduce the diameter, to a size that worked. Knew it needed to be more narrow than the Anschutz "Post," @ .32 mm diameter -- but longer.

Next, to the mitt, already had one that liked but "stumbled" onto one while on a vacation when stopped at their store in Alabama, that works even better. If you need extra padding on the back of your hand and less in the palm then perhaps try the one I settled on below. It's an HP Glove but that doesn't matter if it works. Has a LOT of padding in three separate places that cannot see in the photo below. The padding is directly behind: the wrist, the middle of the hand, and the "V" of the hand. Once again, these three padded areas are on the backside/sling side of hand. You can see the padding on the photos below.


https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product ... OVE/gloves

Fellows: I "think" I've figured out my neck/shoulder "discomfort" issue. The rifle I was using is one that I had "setup to shoot prone, slung up with metallic sights.

For the match that I shot in, I removed the sights and install the "old school" Lyman Target master 12x scope. Great clear glass optics. BUT it sits about a .25 to .35 inch higher than the open sights.

I do "believe" that because of the added height I was "straining" to get my head (eye) up.

I've reinstalled the metallic sights and at my next range outing with find out if my neck/shoulder "discomfort" is..."cured".

I "think" I will be ordering a cumbertson (?) style prone stock for this gun from Richards Micro Stocks. I contacted them and apparently they can fabricate one for my H&R m12. Does this stock sound like a "good idea"? It would be 96ish % inleted and I do have the "skills" to do any "fitting, Ie an adjustable check piece and butt plate.

Thanks Fellows

Yep, a change to the height of the sights can certainly strain your neck. If you want to continue to use that 'scope you could look at ways to raise the line of the iron sights, and shave the bottom of the fore-end to drop the rifle to compensate.

I think the stock is a Culbertson. I think that the shape and fit of the stock is very important. If the H&R doesn' t fit properly, one that does is an improvement. The Culbertson does look to have a more vertical grip, which may allow a straighter wrist. The butt looks quite low for a Prone rifle, so an adjustable butt with plenty of vertical movement to give good shoulder contact would be necessary.

I've not bought one of these stocks, but comments suggest the inletting may not be perfect. Be prepared to epoxy bed the receiver