TargetTalk

Why are or some companies making grips with the thumb bending down? Look at the new Morini 200.
Have I been shooting wrong for the last 50+ years?

Yes

yes your comments I agree with
I asked Morini whats the thumbs down for
There reply seems nonsense
If I had the new 200 I would need to fill the the thumb area,being taught the thumb should be
parallel to the bore
see below..........

Hello,



because the real natural position of the thumb is down

because with the thumb down you can make more force holding the grip



and because many top shooters shoots with thumb down





Francesco Repich



Morini Competition Arm S.A.

Via ai Gelsi 11

6930 Bedano-Switzerland

Tel.: +41 91 9352230

Fax: +41 91 9352231

http://www.morini.ch


Its seems we have both been shooting wrong for 50 years,so has most of the world

I just got my Morini CM 162EI Electronic Trigger Air Pistol on Feb. 13th this year and have fired about 700 pellets thru it so far. I'm not completely happy with the grip, maybe I should try the new thumb down style. Anyone know if they make that grip for the Morini CM 162EI Electronic Trigger Air Pistol ?

I suspect it's a meaningless fad. As soon as a top level shooter wins a big medal, everyone studies their technique, equipment & position and tries to copy it. One of the top pistol shooters in the US is Brian Zins. He doesn't shoot ISSF events, but he's won the National Pistol Championship something like 12 times. Somebody spotted him eating a banana and mayonnaise sandwich before a big match, and in short order, LOTS of shooters were making banana and mayonnaise sandwiches to eat before they shot... He was very amused. He just happens to LIKE banana and mayonnaise sandwiches.

why does the thumb have to be parallel to the barrel and what speaks against a thumb pointing downward?

I always thought I was weird for hogging out the left side of my grip so my thumb could circle downward.

Turns out I was ahead of my time!

Mauro Badaracchi (CM 162)

Thumb down is the way to go.

For most people, if you hold your hand in it's natural relaxed state, the thumb will point to the trigger finger. When you think about it, that's the way we have evolved in order to pick things up.

OTD wrote:why does the thumb have to be parallel to the barrel and what speaks against a thumb pointing downward?

The key issue is whether the thumb applies any sideways (off-axis) pressure on the grip. If it does, it's a variable that will tend to push your shots around. The most consistent pressure you can apply is ZERO, so the best thing is not to have it touching the pistol in the first place. If you do that, the silly thumb rest on the grip is irrelevant.

Gwhite wrote: The most consistent pressure you can apply is ZERO, so the best thing is not to have it touching the pistol in the first place.

Try picking something up without your thumb? it's not possible, you must use your thumb when gripping the pistol otherwise it will fall on the floor. The thumb forms one side of the "web" of the hand that essential to holding a pistol, and the base of the thumb is the part that the fingers oppose when gripping the pistol.

A pistol grip is a mixture between a cylindrical and spherical grip. I have read (and heard) that a spherical grip is the ideal human interface device for fine control, but has practical limitations for pistol shooting. The Анатолий Поддубный article (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57569) discusses this to some length. As J-team mentions, relax your hand and the thumb wants to be down.

This paper is interesting for those who want to learn more about the mechanics of the hand. I have my TOZ grip setup for thumb to slope down and the wrist high and sloped in a very spherical grip where my AP is more spherical.

Landsmeer, J. M. F. (1962). Power grip and precision handling. Annals of the rheumatic diseases, 21(2), 164.



Edit: our cousins using tools, watch their thumbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3LN4vqtlM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFACrIx5SZ0

j-team wrote:

Gwhite wrote: The most consistent pressure you can apply is ZERO, so the best thing is not to have it touching the pistol in the first place.

Try picking something up without your thumb? it's not possible, you must use your thumb when gripping the pistol otherwise it will fall on the floor. The thumb forms one side of the "web" of the hand that essential to holding a pistol, and the base of the thumb is the part that the fingers oppose when gripping the pistol.

All you need to hold the pistol is the base of the thumb (as you said). The up or down position of the outer two sections is largely irrelevant to a secure enough grip to hold the pistol. The pressure should be straight in line with the bore, from the fingers on the forestrap into the heel of the hand. The base of the thumb helps to form the pocket the rear of the grip sits in. If you relax the outer two sections of the thumb, they will tend to point forward, and not down.

Using more of your thumb than the base will provide a more secure grip, but I claim it will take a LOT more practice to aim consistently than reducing the thumb pressure (outer two sections) to zero. Millions of years of evolution and grabbing things have conditioned us to push with the tip of the thumb when we pull with the finger tip. The natural tendency of the thumb to increase pressure on the grip when you squeeze the trigger will tend to push shots off to the opposite side. If you can learn to completely relax your thumb, that problem should evaporate. If you want to use thumb tip pressure, you can, but it will require more training and control to keep that pressure as consistent as if it's zero.

http://www.issf-sports.org/photoplayer. ... 2390-12343

100% thumb down grip.

The pictures I saw were all rapid fire, which is not exactly a precision event. There a more controlling grip might be helpful. This discussion started being about AIR pistol. The recent World Cup Air Pistol Finals show only a few with their thumbs down, and none as exaggerated as the rapid fire shooters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkm8-2NXAOQ

It's hard to tell from the angle of the video, but most of them also appear to be shooting with a relaxed thumb.

Same thing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yztwfAqql9I

Gwhite wrote: This discussion started being about AIR pistol]

Look closer at the WC pics, more thumbs down that up in AP as well, but I guess you see what you want to see.

If you just relax your thumb, the tip can droop a little bit. That's what i see in a lot of the air pistol images. The position used by the rapid fire shooters is much more extreme, and has to require some muscle action to achieve. The new Morini grip that started this thread isn't that extreme:



The entire thumb is tilted downward in a fairly straight line so it's about in line with the trigger finger.

Here are images of the more extreme thumb-tip down position used by some of the rapid fire shooters:

and

http://www.eley.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/25m ... idFire.JPG

But it's hardly universal:





To each his own. One advantage of shaping the grip the way the Morini 200 has done is that you now have a broader range of thumb positions available without having to attack the grip with a file. If you relax your thumb, it's unlikely to run into the grip.

If it was all that important, I would have expected the higher level shooters to have taken a file to their grips long ago. There is no sign of that in any of the rapid fire photos I found.

I noticed the grip that Cesare Morini custom fit for therider in http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43166 is thumbs down. (About 3/4s down the thread is a link to therider's Photobucket slideshow.)

Since I liked the position on my FWB AW93 grip I modified my Steyr LP10 grip like this Matchgun's:



AW93 thumb shelf:



My Steyr grip came out great (Thanks Igor!) and feels great too.

I think the point is that the thumb is therefore able to provide more downward and inward pressure, toward the trigger fingertip basically. It's pretty much the position your thumb takes when making a fist.

I much prefer it to the straight-forward position personally, it greatly stabilizes my hold.

I've always wanted to drop my thumb tip phalanx just a tad and I've just done it but only by about 4mm and it has taken the tension away that has always felt wrong. If you read the very good grip fitting instructions on Thomas Rink's website you will see that he recommends you drop the whole shelf if you feel the fit is wrong. I did not do this but took just the end joint area down using a hand held die grinder fitted with an a wood abrasive ball.