TargetTalk

Maybe this belongs in the Bullseye forum, but it's just speculative blue sky thinking, so I put it here.

A few firearm related things have been reattling around in my brain and they came together in one idea.

I found out about the George Wilson 45ACP Match pistol (http://tonybrong.blogspot.ca/2014/02/wilson-pistol.html) and then, looking for more information, I stumbled across a thread about a pistol that seems to be a revival of the George Wilson design.
http://www.revolarms.com/the-dl45.html

Although the patent (https://www.google.com/patents/WO2014123628A2) linked in the other sites thread seems to be light on new innovation. Seems to describe what is standard on many Euro competition guns.

I'm happy to see the design produced. Disheartened that the class of the George Wilson pistol was lost. Somehow the DL45 look clunky.

Also disappointed that they don't seem to have looked into the state of modern bullseye to evolve the design for sights, optics, and grip.

From the design, I was curious if calibre changes might be possible with different barrels and magazines. Then of course while cleaning my FAS and making a new buffer, my mind wandered and started thinking about possibilities.

Would it be possible to create a target class pistol that could shoot any calibre? Both the FAS and Pardini basic design accommodate multiple calibres. At least 22LR, 32SW, and 32ACP (Pardini). Pardini betters the FAS as the calibre change can use the same frame.

So why not other calibres? The obvious answer is of course is the requirement of a huge slide/bolt or some sort of barrel-slide locking mechanism. The Wilson and DL45 use a dropping block

Enter another technology that's piqued my interest: The PX4 rotating barrel.

Looking at the FAS (and similarly the Pardini) I don't see it as an impossible task to install the barrel in the front shroud with bushings and have the equivalent of the locking block in the frame.

Biggest possible problems I see is that a 45 bolt might still need to be too massive compared to the slides in the FAS or Pardini and the need for some creative design for the locking lugs and interface with the bolt.

So...

Stupid idea?

Considering that it's taking years for Chiappa to come out with a simple copy of the FAS I'm under no illusion that this would be anything easy.

I would think any ideal design for a target pistol would start with a fixed barrel with sights/scope mount attached to similarly non-moving parts of the gun to promote the greatest degree of consistency from shot to shot. The problem is, fixed barrel guns limit the type of actions that can be employed with heavier recoiling calibers. I'm thinking a gas-delayed blowback or roller-delayed blowback action would be ideal. I believe these types of actions have been used in the Ed Masaki "Dragon Gun" and Korth PRS 1911, respectively. I've been lucky enough to fire a few rounds through a "Dragon Gun." It was amazing. The recoil was light, muzzle rise was minimal, and the gun seemed to cycle incredibly fast compared to your typical 1911 in .45acp with a slide mount red dot.

As for placement of the magazine, there are plusses and minus as to where to put it, and I'm not sure which would be better.

Forward of the grip like Pardinis.
Pros: Leaves plenty of room for adjustable triggers and adjustable grips. Grip size isn't dependent on size/shape of magazine, which is particularly good for folks with small hands.
Cons: Relatively high mass of 5 rounds of 200gr .45acp rounds would be relatively heavy up front to start and would change by a 1/4 pound or so as the gun was fired, altering the balance.

In the grip like 1911s.
Pros: Balance is more controllable and change in mass through a firing string would likely be less noticeable.
Cons: Grip size is dependent on accommodating the .45acp cartridge and magazine. Grip adjustments limited by size/shape of magazine. Less room for trigger mechanism, and might have to arrange it around size/shape of magazine.

Because of the heavier recoil, I'd think a more upright grip angle (more 1911, less Pardini) would be more comfortable.

Thanks for biting.
There seems to be a wealth of possible fixed barrel or alternate locking mechanisms to the 1911/Browning short recoil design.
Seems to me that the 1911 is the go to gun because of tradition and resistance to change. Aided and abetted by a small market.

I've seen roller delayed guns before, Korth, Korriphila, Heckler & Koch, and others. All seem to be priced super high and/or no longer obtainable.

I've also asked why not make a 45ACP with gas operation similar to the Desert Eagle.

Current musings are around the rotating barrel only because I thought it easier to work with than the precision parts required for roller delay.

An H&K P9S in 45 acp with target grips would be a nice thing to have...

Any idea for a new, target-oriented design for a relatively limited market isn’t going to be cheap. Any design where the barrel moves will be inherently less accurate than a fixed barrel design.

Part of what makes the Desert Eagle work is that it uses a massive slide/rotating bolt assembly you wouldn’t want on a target gun.

sparky wrote:I'm thinking a gas-delayed blowback ...

I've never run across an H&K P7 that wasn't surprisingly accurate. It has a fixed barrel and a gas-delayed blowback action that is quite simple. That sort of mechanism atop a 1911-ish frame (for the ergonomics and the trigger) would be interesting.

If it were further possible to put the gas system on top of the barrel instead of underneath, then lower the barrel way down in the frame for better recoil control, the result might be something downright special.