TargetTalk

Hello All,
I'm a master BE shooter and I'm working up for this years Harry Reeve and Distinguished Revolver matches at Camp Perry. I need to resolve some questions before committing to my practice program.
-Is an out of the box, no lock 686 6" accurate enough? Do they shoot within 3" at 50yrds.
-Is a .357 cylinder at an accuracy disadvantage shooting .38 rounds (I also have a S&W model 14).
-Is the 686 Competitor model accurized?
-Can anyone recommend a good precision revolver gunsmith?
Thanks
DAF

Below is my opinion, but it is based on facts and my personal experience (yes, I have a S&W 586 and Colt Officers Match):

A Colt Officers Match revolver will consistently shoot more accurately than a S&W (fill in the model you like). There are a number of design differences which attribute to this opinion. First, the hammer spring has minimum force at full cock in single action; this not only makes for a lighter and consistent trigger, but also allows longer life for the hammer and sear surfaces. Second, the cylinder is physically moved to contact the barrel when the hammer is fully cocked and is held to prevent rotation by the cylinder hand (EDIT: this only occurs when the trigger is pressed at full cock); again this is most advantageous in singe action. Third, the barrel is unique and not a standard 38 special version.

On the positive comparison side: both revolvers are (or can be) made from tool steel; that allows much longer life and less wear. Both revolvers have custom grips support; the S&W may have a slight advantage in aftermarket products. Also, there is no significant balance difference (again, IMO) between the Colt Officers Match and a S&W 686. However, my experience has been that stainless steel is less durable than high carbon tool steel - if that matters.

The main reason to buy a S&W revolver? It's durable, well machined, and has aftermarket support. Also, for enough money, the S&W cylinder to barrel tolerance can be reduced. But (again, IMO), the basic design differences between the Colt Officers Match and (any) S&W revolver give an accuracy advantage to the Colt. Also, (again with another caveat) this is for 148 gr HBWC with 3.0 gr Bullseye powder or equivalent. A cylinder chambered for 38 special will shoot more accurately than an .357 cylinder (considering HBWC target ammunition).

The dilemma is finding a Colt Officers Match (or two) in good shape and keeping on good terms with the Colt factory service folks. As usual, YMMV.

EDIT: FWIW, the comment about the cylinder moving forward to remove the gap with the barrel and locking of the cylinder when the trigger is pulled is not unique to the Officers Model Match. I'm not a big Colt collector, but both my Officers Model Match and Officers Model Special have this feature - but if the hand is worn this may not function correctly. Also, my 1851 replica .36 Colt navy revolver moves the cylinder (via a spring loaded hand) to remove the gap with the barrel when cocked - so this is not a new feature of Colt revolvers.

Greetings,

Some Random Rest targets fired at 50 yards with my friends 586 with a four inch barrel.

The ammo is various 148 grain HBWC Commercial Match.

I did test a second 586 with 158 grain Lead Round Nose and it also shot ten ring at 50 yards with good ammo. Sadly, I did not save the targets. This gun was a six inch barrel.

Cheers,

Dave

Wow...great groups! With a four (4) inch barrel to boot! Thanks
DAF

Some of the best DR groups I've seen shot were with a Ruger GP-100 with the six inch barrel and the stock Ruger grips.

I went DR and came in second (by one stinkin' point) in the Harry Reeves match in 2007 with a bone stock S&W 38 special K-frame (older than model numbers) with Uncle Mike's rubbery grips. People I know who've won HR have used .357 mag revolvers that they also use for deer hunting. The longer chamber didn't seem to hold them back a bit.

Thanks Norm...I hope I do as well at CP in Harry Reeves as you did in 2007.
One quick question: Can you load .357 cases with 158gn LSWC to reduce the jump to the rifling or is it against the rules?
Thanks
DAF

I always did it with my Model 19 with no problem. I have heard of a place that complained because it was a "magnum."

It was horribly inaccurate until I sent it back to S&W to have the cylinder throats reamed. Afterward I could cover 25yd groups with a fingertip.

I have a 586-3 that I was working on to possible use in place of my Colt OMS for DR, as I am not practiced enough to get on the double-cockeyed hammer fast enough to Rapid Fire wit the Colt and would lose a shot. I was hoping to shoot double action with the S&W. The cylinder throats were all reamed to shoot lead.

When firing Zero 148gr or Magnus 148gr swaged HBWC in the 586 I was getting leading in the cylinder throats but the barrel was mostly clean. Talking with owner of Magnus Bullets about this and he said stick to 158 SWC or LRN in a .357 chamber as the HBWC shirts open up in the 357 cylinder chambers and leads the cylinder throat.

Thanks for the reply Sa-Tevo,
I have a question about the Colt Officers Match that you have. I've heard that the cylinder moves forward to close the cylinder/barrel gap in single action which makes it better in slow fire. Is that true? Also, do you have a tapered barrel or a heavy straight barrel and which barrel is better? The Colt Officers Match is a possibility for me.
Thanks
DAF

The only revolver I know of that moves the cylinder forward with hammer cocking were Soviet Union TOZ 36 and 49 target revolvers.

I have a stove pipe Colt Officers Model Special, the one with a straight barrel. It has a sweet single action and a King or Micro hammer. I am the third owner. The trigger has sharp serrations which makes the double action painful so I only fire it single action. It was Colt's premier revolver until the Python came out. The barrel shoots lead cleanly and accurately. Officers Model Matches also have a good reputation. I find it interesting to compare the Colt to S&W for pros and cons of each design. The Colts have faster twist barrels, better cylinder alignment and tighter cylinder chambers.

Since I didn't shoot my 586 well when I stumbled upon a S&W 14-3 at a great price I grabbed it. The K frame handles much better where the L frame 586 6" felt like an artillery piece. As a bonus the Model 14 came with a lot of X's installed from the factory.

Edited due to originally typed on a retarded phone.

I liked the Ruger Match Champion, which is basically a performance version of 4" GP100. It has a pretty smooth stock trigger (better than the stock on the 686 Plus I had). Nice balance. The stock grip is lovely but you may prefer something more grippy. Hate the neon sign on the sides of the slab barrel, but a very nice target wheelgun.

I've considered the Ruger Match Champion for IDPA but went with a no-dash 686, 4" with a bobbed hammer. I agree that the GP 100MC had a great trigger. I was surprised how good it was. For the bullseye/precision pistol work, I like a 6" barrel for the sight radius. One option I've been considering is a Model 10 or 14 PPC gun. The problem is a lot of those are double action only and may be a bit too muzzle heavy.
Thanks

DAF

I love the engineering in the PPC revolvers but cannot justify owning one as they do not fit the rules for Distinguished Revolver competition. There is a Travis Strahan PPC gun floating around for sale along with some others built by famous revolver mechanics. It is fascinating when one of the gunsmiths shares information on building and testing these revolvers.

DaFont wrote:Thanks Norm...
One quick question: Can you load .357 cases with 158gn LSWC to reduce the jump to the rifling or is it against the rules?
Thanks
DAF

Has to be 38 specials. The rules for DR are only one paragraph. Worth reading, not interpreting.

I fired the entire match single action. To me, DA is for two hands, I just can't maintain the sights through that long pull one handed. Though I do know people, including badge #1, who shoot it all DA.

10M_Stan wrote:EDIT: FWIW, the comment about the cylinder moving forward to remove the gap with the barrel and locking of the cylinder when the trigger is pulled is not unique to the Officers Model Match. I'm not a big Colt collector, but both my Officers Model Match and Officers Model Special have this feature - but if the hand is worn this may not function correctly. Also, my 1851 replica .36 Colt navy revolver moves the cylinder (via a spring loaded hand) to remove the gap with the barrel when cocked - so this is not a new feature of Colt revolvers.

Do you think the hand can support the cylinder against the full force of the recoil?
The cylinder and barrel may be touching before its fired, I bet they aren't afterwards.

Great question. With all that pressure, I'll bet its a mute point.
Am I overthinking my revolver for DR and Harry Reeves? I do practice two to four times a week. I'd hate to invest a lot of time in a gun that will not give me 10's when I earn them. Sometimes I over focus on equipment.
Thanks
DAF

JamesH wrote:

10M_Stan wrote:EDIT: FWIW, the comment about the cylinder moving forward to remove the gap with the barrel and locking of the cylinder when the trigger is pulled is not unique to the Officers Model Match. I'm not a big Colt collector, but both my Officers Model Match and Officers Model Special have this feature - but if the hand is worn this may not function correctly. Also, my 1851 replica .36 Colt navy revolver moves the cylinder (via a spring loaded hand) to remove the gap with the barrel when cocked - so this is not a new feature of Colt revolvers.

Do you think the hand can support the cylinder against the full force of the recoil?
The cylinder and barrel may be touching before its fired, I bet they aren't afterwards.

As noted, the behavior and benefits of the Colt mechanism and lockup is my opinion. However, given the historical record of the dominance of the Colt Officers Model in Bullseye pistol target shooting before models such as the S&W M52 it seems there is some reason. I attribute that reason to design features which are unique to the Colts, but others may consider blessings from a voodoo priestess also valid. Perhaps, much like a voodoo blessing, there is a psychological factor attributed to the 'Colt mystique'. Colt advertised their cylinder locking as "Bank vault lock-up". Also, and again this is my opinion, most of the Bullseye targets were sized to allow S&W revolvers to compete and prevent Colt from dominating the sport. So, 'good enough' is just that.

FWIW, the Colt Officers Model Match, Officers Model Special and Pythons all share many of the same internal parts. These internal parts and how they work are distinctly different from S&W or Ruger revolvers. However, from my experience and where my opinions came from, Colt gunsmiths are unique artisans with specialized training and skill. A WECSOG graduate is not suitable for working on a Colt revolver, IMO. Also, Colt revolvers require new parts after some use (particularly the hand) as part of their design.

Papa..this Colt is not as good as an S&W.. I know son...
Colts are aesthetically pleasing, but the internal mechanism is lacking.. It operates on the ragged edge of failure.. The 14 twist barrel has more to do with the target performance than the mechanism design. S&W became dominate because it's the Chevy small block of revolvers, lending itself to a wide array of tuning tweeks, and modifications that helped to offset the 18.75 twist barrel handicap..

Here is just one such modification.. The cylinder has been trued and squared and then bored out to allow a bronze bearing to be pressed in. It is then bored and lapped to the yoke, giving a substantial benefit to running a very tight cylinder/barrel gap, and maintaining critical chamber to chamber alignment.

nglitz wrote:

DaFont wrote:Thanks Norm...
One quick question: Can you load .357 cases with 158gn LSWC to reduce the jump to the rifling or is it against the rules?
Thanks
DAF

Has to be 38 specials. The rules for DR are only one paragraph. Worth reading, not interpreting.

I fired the entire match single action. To me, DA is for two hands, I just can't maintain the sights through that long pull one handed. Though I do know people, including badge #1, who shoot it all DA.

Badge #99 fired DA in the timed and rapid fire stages.
Used a 6" Colt Python.
Do not have it anymore but now shoot an S&W M14-4 that is just as accurate and smooth functioning in DA.

Clarence

Thanks Clarence, I'll probably be fine with my M14 or M686.
Greatly appreciate the feedback.
DAF