TargetTalk

So, got the chance to shoot a rather old DES Unique last Sunday morning.

I got the chance because there are a few DES Uniques for sale at a store nearby and one of the club directors who (in what seems a very stereotypical Russian fashion) started giving me tips. And after commenting my form wasn't so bad, but that if I was interested in target shooting my pistol was "crap". He then demanded that another director bring in his Unique and let me shoot it to convince me to buy one of the ones on sale.

With a pistol I had never held before, and grips that didn't feel quite right I shot 15 shots, 11 ended up fairly evenly distributed in the 9 ring. Scored 130/150.

The flyers with the DES were no better or worse than the flyers with my S&W.

So is it the grip or the whole pistol I need to change to get similar performance from my own pistol?

Then again, while the group and spread from the Unique looked so much better than targets shot with my pistol, the 86/100 average with the DES isn't a million miles from my 82/100 average I shoot with my pistol.

better gear = more points
better fitting grips = better scores

if you want to be competitive slap down the $$ for better stuff. If you want to just have fun and socialize don't care about your performance and have a blast.

I've seen a HM in bullseye shoot his average with a wide array of guns of different quality. He is using his skill to overcome shortcomings of his equipment.

sometimes it's both. Trigger, balance, weight, grip size/angle make it easier if it fits.

Like many I get to shoot different pistols one after another. With the GSP for example it's easy to shoot good scores, while Ruger MK3 it's hard to. Yes, I can shoot the same, but I have to sweat to hit well, while with the other I don't even need to concentrate because everything fits me better, especially the trigger. I have to put a lot of effort into shooting well with Ruger.

Same with a typical S&W Revolver vs CZ75, I have to really try to hit well with S&W, while CZ just works.

It has to do with trigger, weight, grip.

I'd personally go for Haemmerli 208, or step up to AW93 or Pardini if you have the money.

Sometimes it's neither. Often using different equipment makes you pay more attention to process, because it does not feel like your old gear.

SlartyBartFast wrote:

Then again, while the group and spread from the Unique looked so much better than targets shot with my pistol, the 86/100 average with the DES isn't a million miles from my 82/100 average I shoot with my pistol.

Hmmmm let`s see: you´re tellling us that you shot a better average with an unknown and unfitted pistol than with your own (with which you probably have more than a couple thousands shots on) and you still has doubts??

What else do you need to see? A flaming bush?

Talk about incredulous Thomases!!!

Olympic pistol shooting is all about finding your NPA, getting a good fitting grip and a proper trigger release: every one of us know how to aim, even those who don´t pay attention to sights know what they´re doing wrong.

So far, the few shots you fired with the DES proved that it meant an improvement over your model 41, so you know the answer better than us.

renzo wrote:So far, the few shots you fired with the DES proved that it meant an improvement over your model 41, so you know the answer better than us.

Model 41? Nope. A lowly SW22.
And the number of shots on the SW22 number in the hundreds. Not the thousands.

While the DES was nice, I think that I want to save for something more modern.
Really wish there were better grips for what I have.

SlartyBartFast wrote:

renzo wrote:So far, the few shots you fired with the DES proved that it meant an improvement over your model 41, so you know the answer better than us.

Model 41? Nope. A lowly SW22.
And the number of shots on the SW22 number in the hundreds. Not the thousands.

While the DES was nice, I think that I want to save for something more modern.
Really wish there were better grips for what I have.

My bad then , I thought you had a 41.

It´s very difficult to get grips like those you "tasted" in the DES for pistols which hold the magazine in the handle: you´ll find (to a lesser degree due to better designing) the same trouble in a Hammerli 208 or a FWB 93, both top-notch pistols, due to the same limitation.

I don´t how deep your pockets are, but put in the balance the sheer pleasure of shooting a gun like that!

I myself, in times were modern pistols were scarce in my country, had to cope with was available. In free pistol, for example, I started with a Vogel with a Luna barrel, the type they used at the OG up to Berlin. From there I went to a Hammerli 102 (the bull barrel one; i think this is the model number). I was getting better, but when I put my hands on a MTs-55-1, I knew that shooting FP could be enjoyable!!!

The moral is: maybe it´s hard to get the money for a good tool, but none of us are getting any younger, it will serve you not to have a first class pistols if you can`t remember where you DID left it...................................

Having said so, the best of lucks in your search!!!!

But remember: the time, effort, dedication, worries and bullets you`re going to spend on your gun amount to much more than any scalper could ask you for a good iron.

renzo wrote:
It´s very difficult to get grips like those you "tasted" in the DES for pistols which hold the magazine in the handle: you´ll find (to a lesser degree due to better designing) the same trouble in a Hammerli 208 or a FWB 93, both top-notch pistols, due to the same limitation.

Actually, the DES has the magazine in the handle.

And Rink makes grips for the S&W 22A and the 41. He just doesn't want to take my money to make grips for the SW22. At least he has no plans in the foreseeable future.

Save the money you would spend on a Rink grip for your current pistol and by a match pistol. The money you spend trying to get your setup up to competition standards, is better spend on a match gun...

Don't take this the wrong way, but owning a Ruger mkII (which is similar to yours) and a Pardini SP, tells me that they are not in the same ball park, they are not even in the same championship!

Try to find a used pardini sp, morini cm22, fwb aw92, or an hammerli 280. Older hammerlis like the 208 will also be a huge improvement over your current gun. There is also the Walther's GSP, who's grip angle I never liked, but they are also excelente guns. Get one with a match grip. Expect to modify it... ;)

Like Christopher Miceli said,
"if you want to be competitive slap down the $$ for better stuff.
If you want to just have fun and socialize don't care about your performance and have a blast."

Hope this helps

Its time to "gun up". The 22a is a good plinker. The trigger is terrible. No parts for the DES. Find a nice used real target pistol. Like rmca mentions. Lots of nice used Pardinies out there. Get one of the newer models so you can use the different conversions offered.

PFribley wrote:Its time to "gun up". The 22a is a good plinker. The trigger is terrible. No parts for the DES. Find a nice used real target pistol. Like rmca mentions. Lots of nice used Pardinies out there. Get one of the newer models so you can use the different conversions offered.

(Just to be pedantic, I'm using a SW22 Victory. Not a 22A.)

I'm certainly keeping my eyes open for any target pistols on sale. The lack of parts for the DES would be a HUGE negative.

Guess I, and others, didn't expect me to be looking to "gun up" only four months or so after taking up pistol target shooting for the first time.

Actually if you get one that has not been abused a DES will last nearly forever, well I bought mine in 1976 and with about 50K plus down the barrel it has neither broken nor worn out any part. Of the half dozen that came into the CRPC only one part broke - a mag catch. Like Jimmy Lee I plan to pass mine onto my grandkids, lots of life left in them.

Dr Jim

Dr. Jim wrote:Actually if you get one that has not been abused a DES will last nearly forever, well I bought mine in 1976 and with about 50K plus down the barrel it has neither broken nor worn out any part.

Nice to hear. Club members are still recommending I go to the dealer and have a look a the DESs they have in stock.

Have to evaluate them on the basis of adding a new grip. Nils and Rink seem to make them.

SlartyBartFast wrote:Have to evaluate them on the basis of adding a new grip. Nils and Rink seem to make them.

Not sure about the prices in Canada, but in Europe it's hardly worth buying a old match gun, and then spend more money on a grip. The cost of the gun plus the cost of a new grip, always equals a better/newer model that already comes with a match grip.

There is noting wrong with getting a DES, but I would recommend one of the models in my previous post.
There are a lot of guns floating around, be patient and search the buy/sell forums regularly.
You'll get a better deal for sure...

Hope this helps

Unfortunately the market differences between Europe and Canada are Huge! If you look at the prices on the eGun site - say for a Hammerli 208 -you can take that and multiply by ten and you will be in close range for a Canadian example, IF you can find one. I recall only two being advertised in the past two years. New Pardini 22s are priced around $2300 Canadian or about 1100 euros. Only one person selling them here. Similar situation for other pistols, the market is just too small for Adam Smith's invisible hand to moderate things. A few shooters who can work their way through the labrinth od European paperwork and the export fees have done well by bringing in batches - has to be Europe for second hand as the difficulties in getting pistol in from the US makes them generally well over market price. Lots of bureaubrats love to stand in the way.

Cheers. Dr Jim