TargetTalk

Am thinking of going over to the dark side and getting a PCP AP. Currently using an Izh46 (not an M model). I really like the grip, the balance, the sights, the dry fire ability and adore the trigger. Even Jason Long the bronze medalist in O8 SOG said wow about the trigger when he shot my IZZY. We belonged to the same club back NY.

However the stroking to charge is starting to impact my rotator cuff as it has a slight rip in it and it affects my concentration.

So that being the case I need suggestions on a good, entry level PCP that has dry fire ability and a good trigger. I would sell the Izzy to help finance the PCP.

I have read various posts here that say, "buy the best now as it is also an investment and you wont regret it", etc, etc.

Also I have question about the cylinders..whats the story on them? I read that they have dates and stuff. They go out of date an cannot be used in official shoots. Is that a function of the cylinder being stressed over time via multiple charges? I would think the cylinders would be rated by the number of chargings, not by a future date. A heavy user would charge more than a light user thus getting more life out of a cylinder past the date stamped.

Also a question about manual pumps. I have seen the ones on various shooting suppliers for PCP guns. They look like regular pumps that you would use for footballs and basketballs. Would a football pump provide enough pressure to fully charge a cylinder? Otherwise, how much pressure is required to fill a cylinder fully? I have an electric tire compressor too, will that work? Or will I have to get a specific pump? What are my other filling options? And what about the adapters to fit various charging methods.

Yes lots of question but, I have to start somewhere if I go PCP. Thanks

tire compressors work in the range of 2 to 4 bar pressures. football pumps even less. Pcp guns are around 200 bars typically. Is why the safety rules on 10 years for cylinders were instigated whether or not you believe the risks.
if you have rotator cuff problems go for dive tank method of filling because gun pumps take a lot of effort. Cock the izzy 50 times in a row to get the idea!

Funny thing, I bought the Feinwerkbau LP 103 ^^ If I like it I'd be going from PCP to SSP.

you need a specific pump. The pump is easy actually, bend your knees, straighten your arms and let your weight do the job, it takes less than a minute to go from 100 to 200 bar (which is like 100 shots). The first couple of times were a nightmare as I used my arms.

Only if your injury is serious then use a scuba tank.

I find FWB 65 so easy to cock compared to others, with left side of the muzzle against the table. Try cocking the izzy against the table and push down, use a towel so you don't scratch the table or the gun

1) Question on 10 year rule.
In the ISSF rules a cylinder has a serviceable life of 10 years. It is not really a measure of safety - but it kind of is in the same token... I digress; it is largely ignored at anything other than top level competition.

2) Question on pumps.
In short it is a specialised pump that can pump up to 200 bar. Looking at around 2900 psi. A basketball needs around 8 psi to be inflated.
Best option in my opinion is to get a dive tank and yoke to adapt to a DIN -> ISO thread. SCUBA/BA air has an advantage of being clean and dry so no corrosion on internal parts.

Another thing you might not have considered that in finals a SSP is at a significant disadvantage when compared to a PCP.

A Steyr or Morini will hold their value pretty decently so long as you look after it. My opinion is that you buy once, cry once.

hundert wrote:I find FWB 65 so easy to cock compared to others, with left side of the muzzle against the table. Try cocking the izzy against the table and push down, use a towel so you don't scratch the table or the gun

DON'T DO THIS! if you are off axis a bit, you can break the IZH pump linkage. I've had to fix three that the MIT team has broken over the years. A student decided that throwing their weight behind the pump using the bench was a good idea, and another copied them. That broke two. I didn't see the cocking process used by the student that just broke the third, but he's big & strong & was probably pulling off axis as well. The repair isn't trivial, and the parts are hard to get.

The cylinder date business is bogus. Several manufacturers designed & made their cylinders with a 20 year service life before the rule change. The ISSF was probably pressured by a vendor to change the rules so they can sell more tanks. It is NOT a safety issue.

Gwhite wrote:The cylinder date business is bogus. Several manufacturers designed & made their cylinders with a 20 year service life before the rule change. The ISSF was probably pressured by a vendor to change the rules so they can sell more tanks. It is NOT a safety issue.

The ten year rule is a direct consequence of EU legislation regarding pressure vessels and their certification.
And since most manufacturers are EU based...

If you have a rotor cuff injury I would 100% stick to the tanks rather than the pump. I use a pump and, while it's not a huge workout, you certainly feel it in the shoulders after you have done it.

"The ten year rule is a direct consequence of EU legislation regarding pressure vessels and their certification.
And since most manufacturers are EU based..."

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 3-20130101

The real truth is "The cylinder date business is bogus."

1) Vessels with a volume greater than 1 L and a product of PS and V greater than 25 bar·L, or with a pressure PS greater than 200 bar
2) Everything is determined only by manufacturers of cylinders
3) There is the maximum of 10 years of the validity pressure test and the validity of the certificate, i.e. that is a formal requirement only

I wonder if Rover is ok, unusual for a PCP buying thread to go more than 2 hours without him touting a 30 year old CO2.

zanemoseley wrote:I wonder if Rover is ok, unusual for a PCP buying thread to go more than 2 hours without him touting a 30 year old CO2.

Yes I am waiting to be admonished.

Rover will chime in after he sobers up. This time on a Friday afternoon he is out cold.

Its Friday?!!

I am behind schedule!.

Hey toss me a cold one..fast!.

Having done some research on this I have come to the near conclusion that there are no entry level PCP APs, save for the Hammerli AP 20 at about $1000 US. And the things I have read about the AP 20 are very mixed at that.

Add to that the costs of a scuba tank at about 225 (maybe) and the yoke adapters at maybe 150, I dont know if it will be worth it for the AP 20.

Maybe just delay the PCP purchase and just take a few more painkillers for my shoulder in the meanwhile.

Perhaps just give up AP and sell the Izzy and put the $$$ towards HP, Bullseye or SB Silhouette.

Is there an easier cocking SSP out there?

A real rad though is to try to convert the Izzy to PCP...mmmm

You could get an older Steyr LP-1P, or a Morini 162E for the price of a "Hammerli" AP-20. Hammerli used to mean quality; no longer.

You could move in the market for a shade over $500-600 if you play your cards right.

Check out the Walther LPM-1

Honourable mention to the Pardini K58

I just sold a pristine Walther CP3 Match for less than 650$ and it shoots as well as anything out there and was actually a lot less hassle than compressed air. If you're on a budget CO2 is the way to go.

High end SSPs are nice but since nobody makes them anymore, people sell them for (imo) outrageous prices.

But as said, you could def. wait for a good deal on an older pcp.

v76 wrote:High end SSPs are nice but since nobody makes them anymore, people sell them for (imo) outrageous prices.

Manufacturing first tier SSP's is cost prohibitive. They were never cheap from the beginning and were more expensive than their pcp counterparts. It's a good idea to hold onto your fine SSP's as they will maintain and command higher prices in the future.

Xman wrote:Having done some research on this I have come to the near conclusion that there are no entry level PCP APs, save for the Hammerli AP 20 at about $1000 US. And the things I have read about the AP 20 are very mixed at that.

Add to that the costs of a scuba tank at about 225 (maybe) and the yoke adapters at maybe 150, I dont know if it will be worth it for the AP 20.

Maybe just delay the PCP purchase and just take a few more painkillers for my shoulder in the meanwhile.

Perhaps just give up AP and sell the Izzy and put the $$$ towards HP, Bullseye or SB Silhouette.

Is there an easier cocking SSP out there?

A real rad though is to try to convert the Izzy to PCP...mmmm

just to shoot off at a tangent here, having been through the whole age related shoulder degeneration thing, you could take advice from a physio. In my case I moved feet position to face the target full on which meant a different route for the arm from desk to firing position which bypassed the painful area.
Injuries heal but degeration gets worse and maybe a few hundred for dive tanks will seem worth it. Once you are set up for pcp its an easy move to a lightweight pcp rifle when you can't even lift the pistol any more. Been there done that.
Easiest to cock are the likes of FAS 604 where you can push down onto the desk.

kevinweiho wrote:

v76 wrote:High end SSPs are nice but since nobody makes them anymore, people sell them for (imo) outrageous prices.

Manufacturing first tier SSP's is cost prohibitive. They were never cheap from the beginning and were more expensive than their pcp counterparts. It's a good idea to hold onto your fine SSP's as they will maintain and command higher prices in the future.

The future is now! http://www.gunbroker.com/item/586451915

Gwelo wrote:The future is now! http://www.gunbroker.com/item/586451915

The force awakens. May the force be with you Padawan...