TargetTalk

Another round in the tug o war between the NRA and the CMP. After setting the dates for the pistol phase of the National Matches, it appears that the CMP is still planning on shooting their portion of the pistol matches on 1&2 July, while the NRA has moved their pistol competition from the 26th of June to the 10th of July, leaving an entire week inbetween the two phases.

If this stands, I guess we have a couple of hard choices. Either plan on spending more than two weeks in Ohio for what used to be a five day event, or pick one or the other.

I guess for those truly disgusted with this unprofessionalism, there is always the option of going to neither.


Ill keep you posted when we have a final, final, final decision on both competitions.

Sounds like the tug-o-war is now the CMP just releasing the rope for the NRA to fall flat on its ass.

I have lost faith in the NRA doing anything remotely in the interest of the shooting community that does not relate directly to its lobbying efforts.

After talking to several of the players, and receiving several emails on the subject, I now believe that the scheduled dates for Pistol will not change.

The CMP has been pretty adamant about this, and they control the ranges.

I understand the NRA has pulled out high power for good in 2018 to Indiana.
Do you think pistol will follow?
I think the CMP pushed the NRA too hard.

Trooperjake wrote:I understand the NRA has pulled out high power for good in 2018 to Indiana.
Do you think pistol will follow?
I think the CMP pushed the NRA too hard.

I don't know exactly what is going on in high power, but the NRA board hasn't approved the move yet, and won't till January at the earliest. Much can change between now and then. I am not sure if the CMP is pushing the NRA or if it is the Ohio National Guard. Maybe the NRA is the one pushing the other organizations.
It seems a little crazy to me because 1200 competitors without the infastructure that Perry has seems like a disaster in the making.

I don't think pistol will follow near term because there is currently no facility adequate to shoot bullseye pistol nationals other than Perry. If that changes, and Cardinal center builds the facilities than we might see a separation of CMP events at Perry, and NRA pistol somewhere else.

I didn't understand the urgency to move small bore, at least not permenantly. It was suppsedly done for cost savings but considering all the housing at at Perry that didn't make much sense to me either.

NRA rifle generally has less than 400 competitors per phase. At least that seems to have been true for the past few years. A lot of those competitors are the same people.

But the important thing to address is that the NRA says it is moving the Rifle Matches for 2017 to Camp Atterbury in Indiana. If it were 2018, I would be a lot calmer about the whole thing. But they have 7 months to get things straight. From my experience with large projects, I wouldn't do it. Though I would make the plans and announce the change with at least a year of notice to competitors.

The smallbore community is not happy. The silhouette community is not happy. I guess it was just our turns as High Power and Bullseye to get our chance to be unhappy.

jmdavis wrote:
The smallbore community is not happy. The silhouette community is not happy. I guess it was just our turns as High Power and Bullseye to get our chance to be unhappy.

Jim D.
I was not aware, but not surprised that there was a problem/issue going on with the silhouette community of late. Can you reply, PM or new thread in the Lounge about what you know?

It seems that the main interest of the NRA competitions is their new World Shooting Championship, which was heavily advertised and heavy on the awards, lots of money flow. $50,000 in awards and prizes! Can you imagine the increased attendance of Camp Perry with that kind of advertising and $50,000 in awards and prizes?

Does the phrase "follow the money" ring a bell?

NRA Precision Pistol shooters can expect to be part of the same pattern the NRA has set with International, Smallbore, and now Highpower. A move will be coming, to where? Probably Cardinal, which will be nice not shooting in calf deep mud while your gear gets soaked.

My prediction will be that the established shooting disciplines will become the red headed stepchild to the NRA's new darling, The World Shooting Championships.

The reason is simple, just follow the yellow brick road.

If you check steel chickens you will see a number of things over the past 6 or so months. First they come out after Nationals and claim to have signed a contract to have all of the a Nationals at Whittington for the next 5 years. When it is pointed out that attendance tends to be bigger for high power and smallbore silhouette at Ridgeway and that the Director of Comp has said that fewer than 50 shooters at a Nationals will get them cancelled (as happened with Hunter Pistol), there was some back tracking and now smallbore and highpower will continue to rotate. BP, lever, and BP 22 will be at Whittington as will BPTR.

Further irony is that after the final schedule was set for Whittington, they had to go back and change it because of conflicts with three gun matches that would lead to insufficient housing. Lad year there were housing issues that required competitors to move multiple times during the nationals. Some to give up their rooms to NRA staff from what I am told.

[quote="jmdavis"]If you check steel chickens you will see a number of things over the past 6 or so months. First they come out after Nationals and claim to have signed a contract to have all of the a Nationals at Whittington for the next 5 years. When it is pointed out that attendance tends to be bigger for high power and smallbore silhouette at Ridgeway and that the Director of Comp has said that fewer than 50 shooters at a Nationals will get them cancelled (as happened with Hunter Pistol), there was some back tracking and now smallbore and highpower will continue to rotate. BP, lever, and BP 22 will be at Whittington as will BPTR.

Further irony is that after the final schedule was set for Whittington, they had to go back and change it because of conflicts with three gun matches that would lead to insufficient housing. Lad year there were housing issues that required competitors to move multiple times during the nationals. Some to give up their rooms to NRA staff from what I am told.[/quote

thanks for the info..yes Ridgeway get lots of shooters, nice range, accommodations a little sparse though...

ghillieman wrote:My prediction will be that the established shooting disciplines will become the red headed stepchild to the NRA's new darling, The World Shooting Championships.

World Shooting Championships? And what is the co-operation with other national level shooting organisations to claim the title of 'World'? So the NRA World Shooting Championships is to taking on the ISSF World Shooting Championships?

Okay, I'm new to shooting and according to a quick search and reading of the NRA site this farce has been going on for a couple of years.

"The competition, gathering the top shooters in the world to compete in virtually every type of major firearms shooting sport including pistol, rifle, shotgun and combined firearm sports, will crown one competitor the undisputed "World Shooting Champion.”"

And most of the stages are "NRA". Using all-American (except one) guns only.
- Taylors & Company Firearms
- Kimber
- Glock - non-American
- STI International
- ArmaLite
- Mossberg
- Magnum Research
- S&W
- JP Enterprises
- Daniel Defense

As someone who isn't American I find the self-aggrandisement pretty disgusting.


Seems as laughable as the "World Series" for baseball. Although at least any derision of American exceptionalism can be countered with the fact it was created by the World newspaper and it's just tradition that kept the meaningless name.

I really don't like the idea of an organisation well known for political lobbying in one specific nation to be a making a claim of being "international".

The verbage, claims, and self-centeredness of it all makes me pretty certain why the NRA is splitting away from the CMP (although I know nothing about their idiosyncrasies). Seems there isn't enough room for their collective ego to work alongside another organisation.

Hell, as an American (albeit one who competes in international muzzle-loading) I find the self-aggrandizement annoying.

There's money in Tacti-kewl Tommy run-and-gun. The irony being that there are several defensive shooting schools that are realizing that there's a need to make precision shots at distance....the sort of thing that the precision disciplines teach. And I won't even get into the kind of damage duffer-grade shooters blasting away at 7 yards can do to a range.

Isabel1130 wrote:I guess for those truly disgusted with this unprofessionalism, there is always the option of going to neither.

Or the USA Shooting championships.

Hell, the U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team is recruiting. If you can handle iron sights, you can shoot for a trip to Austria in 2018 for the World Championships.

Mike M. wrote:Hell, as an American (albeit one who competes in international muzzle-loading) I find the self-aggrandizement annoying.

There's money in Tacti-kewl Tommy run-and-gun. The irony being that there are several defensive shooting schools that are realizing that there's a need to make precision shots at distance....the sort of thing that the precision disciplines teach. And I won't even get into the kind of damage duffer-grade shooters blasting away at 7 yards can do to a range.

I have never understand the point of running and gunning when the competitors can't "gun" in the first place...

At least they are bloody decent enough to provide firearms for the poor unwashed masses. I wonder if Kim Rhodes would fit in that category, or has some company been "kind" enough to pick her up..

Assholes wouldn't know talent if it slapped them in the face. It's insulting when a good medal Olympian doesn't get noticed by companies claiming to support the shooting sports.

SlartyBartFast wrote:

ghillieman wrote:My prediction will be that the established shooting disciplines will become the red headed stepchild to the NRA's new darling, The World Shooting Championships.

World Shooting Championships? And what is the co-operation with other national level shooting organisations to claim the title of 'World'? So the NRA World Shooting Championships is to taking on the ISSF World Shooting Championships?

Okay, I'm new to shooting and according to a quick search and reading of the NRA site this farce has been going on for a couple of years.

"The competition, gathering the top shooters in the world to compete in virtually every type of major firearms shooting sport including pistol, rifle, shotgun and combined firearm sports, will crown one competitor the undisputed "World Shooting Champion.”"

And most of the stages are "NRA". Using all-American (except one) guns only.
- Taylors & Company Firearms
- Kimber
- Glock - non-American
- STI International
- ArmaLite
- Mossberg
- Magnum Research
- S&W
- JP Enterprises
- Daniel Defense

As someone who isn't American I find the self-aggrandisement pretty disgusting.


Seems as laughable as the "World Series" for baseball. Although at least any derision of American exceptionalism can be countered with the fact it was created by the World newspaper and it's just tradition that kept the meaningless name.

I really don't like the idea of an organisation well known for political lobbying in one specific nation to be a making a claim of being "international".

The verbage, claims, and self-centeredness of it all makes me pretty certain why the NRA is splitting away from the CMP (although I know nothing about their idiosyncrasies). Seems there isn't enough room for their collective ego to work alongside another organisation.

This is skating very close to a political post. Im not going to delete it, but I find it presumtuous when citizens of other countries comment on a United States organization they know almost nothing about, on a forum sponsored by a US gun dealer.

If there is an organization more political than the NRA or the CMP, it is the ISSF, and Olympic shooting.

If you dont like the way the NRA runs their matches, or names their events, feel free to stay home.

Isabel1130 wrote:If you dont like the way the NRA runs their matches, or names their events, feel free to stay home.

The reason I find myself responding is that this entire thread is "political", looking at the internal politics of these two organisations and their failure to continue cooperating, and whether to stay home or not. And a public dressing down wasn't necessary. If you can identify the specific part that I went over the line beyond the the rest of the threads content, you could have pointed that out in a PM and I would do my best to avoid stepping on toes from then on.

Also, I didn't disparage the CMP nor the host of the site. Not even the NRA really. Perfectly fair to say it's a national organisation that seems to have taken on airs of world dominance without much involvement in more than national affairs and interests while making a claim of "virtually every type of major firearms shooting sport" while also not representing the shooting sports represented by USA Shooting, the USA representative at world competition.

Yes, the ISSF has it's internal politics. But it was set up as an organisation to regulate international sport. The NRA was not. And we've heard from one American who also thinks the world claim is presumptuous.

Considering the fair comment to say if a national organisation sees itself as "World" that it seems evident why they aren't cooperating very well at sharing a national title.

Perhaps Mr. SBF could elaborate on some of his extensive achievements in the arena of precision marksmanship. In the last two weeks.

As to his intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the three governing bodies.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a ...." Oops. Too late.

Bullseye26 wrote:Perhaps Mr. SBF could elaborate on some of his extensive achievements in the arena of precision marksmanship. In the last two weeks.

As to his intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the three governing bodies.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a ...." Oops. Too late.

Jerk much? Would it kill you to not sound like you have your nose in the stratosphere?

If you want to debate about something, fine, but lay off the elitism. These sports have so few followers that the Olympics just wrote off a century old event without blinking. We really don't need your help in driving off the few beginners who exist.

I stopped being a member of the the NRA because, frankly, they clearly do not have my best interest in mind. I was told what to buy and how to vote. I was sold life insurance, Medicare (despite not qualifying) plans, and shitty guns dipped in a gold bath and told they were wonderful collectables. It was annoying. I enjoy shooting very much but when I asked for the Rifleman magazines I expected RIFLES not rhetoric !

In the future I may rejoin once my interests and theirs realign. But for now they really need to tone down the rhetoric.

Chia wrote:

Bullseye26 wrote:Perhaps Mr. SBF could elaborate on some of his extensive achievements in the arena of precision marksmanship. In the last two weeks.

As to his intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the three governing bodies.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a ...." Oops. Too late.

Jerk much? Would it kill you to not sound like you have your nose in the stratosphere?

If you want to debate about something, fine, but lay off the elitism. These sports have so few followers that the Olympics just wrote off a century old event without blinking. We really don't need your help in driving off the few beginners who exist.

I stopped being a member of the the NRA because, frankly, they clearly do not have my best interest in mind. I was told what to buy and how to vote. I was sold life insurance, Medicare (despite not qualifying) plans, and shitty guns dipped in a gold bath and told they were wonderful collectables. It was annoying. I enjoy shooting very much but when I asked for the Rifleman magazines I expected RIFLES not rhetoric !

In the future I may rejoin once my interests and theirs realign. But for now they really need to tone down the rhetoric.

Im sympathetic to your concerns. I think the NRA lost sight and interest in competitive shooting when they found how how little money was in it for them.

However, as the daughter of a gun dealer whose busness was seriously affected by the gun control act of 1968, i also fully appreciate the fact that the NRA's decision to spend a lot of their time and money supporting politicians and ensuring the firearms business wasn't legislated out of existence aided and abetted by the Supreme Court was probably a good one.


There are problems. We either need someone at the NRA who knows how to budget and run a cost effective National Match, or we probably need to turn the matches over to someone who does.

Isabel1130 wrote:Im sympathetic to your concerns. I think the NRA lost sight and interest in competitive shooting when they found how how little money was in it for them.

However, as the daughter of a gun dealer whose busness was seriously affected by the gun control act of 1968, i also fully appreciate the fact that the NRA's decision to spend a lot of their time and money supporting politicians and ensuring the firearms business wasn't legislated out of existence aided and abetted by the Supreme Court was probably a good one.


There are problems. We either need someone at the NRA who knows how to budget and run a cost effective National Match, or we probably need to turn the matches over to someone who does.

And I am sympathetic to your concerns as well. I would never say that the NRA is unnecessary or that advocating for the freedom to use firearms is a bad thing. Also, my concerns are strictly from a personal standpoint. Zooming out from that, I fully recognize the necessity of having a strong firearms lobbying system, and I support it. Part of lawyer training is a peek at the skeleton closet regarding administrative agencies, and it scared me. I know that some people dismiss the people with tin foil hats who say the government is out to get them, but honestly it could if it wanted to. The ATF & associated agencies could make your collective lives hell if it wanted to, especially in regards to international commerce (strictly executory in nature. Barely any oversight of regulations, just the Chevron standard. Worse, the authority is split between the ATF, secretary of state, and the tactful and loving arms of US customs) You might as well call it a small subgovernment just for firearm merchants that allows absolutely no representation or lobbying. Just factionalism among the various regulatory agencies).

I'd rather focus on similarities than differences on this forum. All of us enjoy (or want to enjoy) shooting competitively, but I think we can all agree that the governing organizations are just having some growing pains. Or they're growing to be pains. One of the two.