TargetTalk

In the market for a new center fire bullseye pistol. Idk where to start. Do I have one custom made or buy one otr and then put in a custom barrel etc. please let me know where to go with this. I have a Wilson and a couple others I have bought otr but I want to make sure I go the right way this time. Thanks in advance

Cannot tell you what to do. I placed an order for a custom, hand-made pistol from KC Crawford. Took eight months but it is perfect in every way. Well worth the money and the wait.

Here is a picture https://www.facebook.com/kcskustom/phot ... 98/?type=3



Chip

If you don't know what you want, then you don't want it. Keep shooting what you have and stop pestering us with your vague yearnings.

Wow so sorry to bother you rover. I wouldn't consider a few topics over the course of months as pestering. I thought this was exactly the place to ask questions like I have. You sound like a troll.

Then I'll give you more specific advice. Around your home range there are several guys wanting to sell Bullseye guns. Buy one in .45 caliber. That way you can use it for center-fire and .45 matches: one less gun to buy and you'll save on accessories and extras. There will also be no "familiarization" time for an extra gun. Have a parts kit handy and you'll never have any down time.

Wpvince wrote:In the market for a new center fire bullseye pistol. Idk where to start. Do I have one custom made or buy one otr and then put in a custom barrel etc. please let me know where to go with this. I have a Wilson and a couple others I have bought otr but I want to make sure I go the right way this time. Thanks in advance

Are you wanting to shoot outdoor NRA 2700 matches or International centerfire? Do you want a pistol with a scope (red dot) or iron sights? Do you want to use it to compete in CMP "Leg" matches? How soon do you need it? What is your budget?

Make it a 45 most competitors use the 45 for the CF portion of the 2700

Order a custom costs $3.5-5K and takes 6-8 months. I have 2 of KC's guns (9MM & 45), I highly recommend him.
Buy a used $1-2K you can get it now and shoot until your custom gun arrives :).

I started with a Les Baer $2.2K, they are usually in stock at Champions Choice. They are a good gun but the frame mount (bridge style) sits the optic fairly high. Many people are just fine with it but I preferred the frame mount KC uses.

You really need to decide on what you like or better yet shoot well before you order a custom gun.

- Dave

My Les Baer is NOT for sale - I get attached.

Wpvince wrote:In the market for a new center fire bullseye pistol. Idk where to start. Do I have one custom made or buy one otr and then put in a custom barrel etc. please let me know where to go with this. I have a Wilson and a couple others I have bought otr but I want to make sure I go the right way this time. Thanks in advance

Call Dave Santurri at http://santurriltd.com/ , telephone 401-726-1310 and discuss your wants and needs. He'll take good care of you.

I wouldn't rule out accuracy x in your search for a 45. I looked at them at perry last year. I am pretty impressed with the craftsmanship and the accuracy.

What state are you located in? And what type of matches do you shoot ?

Also, I see a lot of shooters where I live who shoot 1800's and the CF gun is a 32 or 38. They don't shoot 45 at all. I shot a 32acp for a season. Scores were as good as with my 22, but I needed to shoot my 45 more to improve so I parked the 32 and like most, shoot the 45 in CF now also. If you don't have to shoot a 45, then you may want to consider a new Pardini CF gun. Super easy to shoot. As accurate as they get. Best service in the industry. Easy guns to set up, use, and clean. Reliable as they come.

GOVTMODEL wrote:

Wpvince wrote:In the market for a new center fire bullseye pistol. Idk where to start. Do I have one custom made or buy one otr and then put in a custom barrel etc. please let me know where to go with this. I have a Wilson and a couple others I have bought otr but I want to make sure I go the right way this time. Thanks in advance

Call Dave Santurri at http://santurriltd.com/ , telephone 401-726-1310 and discuss your wants and needs. He'll take good care of you.

I will second this suggestion. I have had 4 custom .45's made by Dave and his work is excellent and accuracy is great. Turnaround on his work is also pretty fast.

This will probably will not go well with most bullseye shooters on here, BUT....if you mostly shoot 25 yards and/or 1800 matches, then really a .32 is really the only way to go. If you plan on shooting mostly real deal 50 yard 2700s then a .45 is the right choice. Unless your a natural or you plan on shooting and practicing a whole lot, a .45 is a difficult pistol to shoot well. By well I mean to at least the expert level. And that's not a winning expert level. Its great to say you shoot a .45 in both centerfire and .45, but whats the point if your scores don't improve. With a .32 you will copy your .22 scores. When your comfortable then you can move up to the .45. Less recoil, cheaper gun if your going full blown custom .45, and cheaper to shoot. There will be many naysayers, but if you want to shoot well and confidently quickly, do yourself a favor and buy one. You will never be sorry.

tenx9 wrote:This will probably will not go well with most bullseye shooters on here, BUT....if you mostly shoot 25 yards and/or 1800 matches, then really a .32 is really the only way to go. If you plan on shooting mostly real deal 50 yard 2700s then a .45 is the right choice. Unless your a natural or you plan on shooting and practicing a whole lot, a .45 is a difficult pistol to shoot well. By well I mean to at least the expert level. And that's not a winning expert level. Its great to say you shoot a .45 in both centerfire and .45, but whats the point if your scores don't improve. With a .32 you will copy your .22 scores. When your comfortable then you can move up to the .45. Less recoil, cheaper gun if your going full blown custom .45, and cheaper to shoot. There will be many naysayers, but if you want to shoot well and confidently quickly, do yourself a favor and buy one. You will never be sorry.

On the downside, 32 ammo is expensive and and is probably the trickiest of all bullseye ammo to reload. A 1911 9mm will give you slightly more recoil, with the same big advantage of the 32 (a 2.5 pound legal trigger) without the hassle of a frustrating reloading experience.


Short answer, if you want to buy one gun, and shoot an entire 2700, learning the 45 is the way to go.

lol. I guess you never shot a .32. Although, you know just about everything about bullseye shooting, I beg to differ. A well thought out .32 is very easy to load for. I can tell you 3 loads off the top of my head. A 9mm is has ridiculously more recoil. In order to get the 9mm to shoot, you're using on average maybe 4 grains or so of W231. Whereas, a .32 uses maybe 1.3 gr of bullseye. You can beat me up for a tenth or so. So whats the head you have to use for 9mm...124gr maybe a 147g depending on twist???? a .32 uses a 98g lead wadcutter. Please, I know you know everything, but dont steer new shooters in a wrong direction. Frankly, I dont own one, but I've shot 9mm ball guns. Some kick like a .45 ball gun and they're harder not easier to load for than a .45.

tenx9 wrote:lol. I guess you never shot a .32. Although, you know just about everything about bullseye shooting, I beg to differ. A well thought out .32 is very easy to load for. I can tell you 3 loads off the top of my head. A 9mm is has ridiculously more recoil. In order to get the 9mm to shoot, you're using on average maybe 4 grains or so of W231. Whereas, a .32 uses maybe 1.3 gr of bullseye. You can beat me up for a tenth or so. So whats the head you have to use for 9mm...124gr maybe a 147g depending on twist???? a .32 uses a 98g lead wadcutter. Please, I know you know everything, but dont steer new shooters in a wrong direction. Frankly, I dont own one, but I've shot 9mm ball guns. Some kick like a .45 ball gun and they're harder not easier to load for than a .45.

I've shot both, and the new CMP ammo rules erased the advantage of shooting the Beretta for the LEG match except for one issue. A accurized Beretta is a one inch gun, and most 45s with ball ammo are four inch guns at best at the fifty.

The AMU runs these tests, and are very free with their opinions of you ask them.

Any round can be loaded down for the short line to kick less. That is true of the 45, and also true of the 9mm especially when you are using it as a Center fire gun on a 1911 9.


I tend to shoot my 45 better than my 9mm because I seem to be able to do well with a heavier trigger, and also because I have a short line load for my 45 that is pretty darn light, but still accurate, and functions well.



I don't own a 32. Many of my friends do. Most of them abandoned it after not being able to get consistently good scores with their 45. Now if someone starts making a .32 conversion that goes on a 45 some of those issues go away.


You have been misinformed about bullets needed for the 9mm.

115 grain anything works fine at the short line. 115 grain ball or 115g Hornady XTP jacketed hollow point great at the fifty.

I use Penn 115g semi wad cuttersat the short line. x ring accurate and seven cents a piece. I watched Jim Henderson take the x ring out the a target a few years ago, at a match in Tennesee using Penn bullets that the AMU had originally loaded for the International shooters.

You are not going to get a 9mm to shoot well at the fifty with anything other than a KKM 1/32 twist rate barrel.

Unfortunately the same is true of a .32 in spades.

32 S&W requires a Dave Wilson barrel to shoot at the fifty yard line or you have to find and reload 32 ACP.

A friend who shoots his very well, seems to want to stick to his 32 through thick and thin, just bought an entire swaging set up to make 32. We did the math. One he swages 40,000 rounds he will break even on the swaging set up.


If you can find preloaded 32 for sale right now, please post a link so everyone can see how reasonable the price is.

The truth is, a few people are doing very well with them. But they require a lot of time outside of the firing line to get them tuned correctly. If they were the magic guns, everyone thinks they are, the AMU with unlimited funds, would have gone to them long ago. They haven't, and that should tell you something.

Of course. once again you know everything. If you actually read my post, which of course you just glanced at and knew I was wrong and you were right. You would have read that, a BEGINNING SHOOTER, mostly shooting 25 yard courses of fire would benefit shooting an "OUT OF THE BOX" .32 rather than a .45acp.

IN FACT A NEW SHOOTER would spend less and would be able to practice more. OUT OF THE BOX .32s are indeed cheaper than the custom made 9mm and 45acps that are out there. And they shoot better than most stock .45acps.

Henderson is a many many many time National Champ that could shoot a stock Ruger with a 6lb trigger and destroy just about everyone. However, HE IS NOT A BEGINNING SHOOTER.

and yes a .32 is hopeless at 50yards. If you bothered to read my post, I started with that. Of course, you didn't bother reading it, because you know better.
I've had silly correspondences with you before and they become silly tit for tat scenarios. But then you knew that as well. This will be my last on the subject. Enjoy yourself and have a nice day

Since the OP has not mentioned what the purpose of the CF pistol will be used for, then all this is a moot point.

Take your pick;
.32
.38
9mm
.45

As far as the bickering; it is senseless.
We all have our opinions, some may or may not be good in different eyes, but, yes, they are just opinions.
Been involved in shooting disciplines for awhile.
Most shooters are good people but some need a refresher course in manners.

Clarence

IMHO - The more you can keep things consistent when you start out the better. I am a firm believer that you should start out with an accurate 45 with a good trigger. Buy a 22 conversion for it and that way you shoot the same trigger for everything. You will see your 22, CF & 45 scores progress at nearly the same rate. This does require that you either shoot irons or a slide mounted optic. There is really no physical reason you shouldn't be shooting an accuraized 45 nearly as well as a 22. This sport is >95% mental and if you concede that your 22 scores will be higher guess what, you won't shoot your 45 as well as you could have. If you look hard at many of the HM scores they often outscore their 22 scores with their 45. Why is that, because they are 100% process focused.

Once you get your shot process down, start looking for a dedicated frame for the 22, so you can shoot the lighter trigger.

- Dave
Have you dry fired today?? Remember dry fire 100 times for every live round fired.

I almost went the Pardini .32acp route, beautiful gun, at that time too expensive to shoot no lead rounds developed just Hornady HAP/XTP. I decided to stay with the 1911 platform. I also have a 1911 in 9mm 1-32 KKM barrel, very accurate!

I do agree with most of everything you two last posters have said. However, I've been around longer than I choose to mention, and to my dismay I've never made master. While its true due to nagging physical problems I haven't been able to travel to matches like I used to, I'm not fully in tune to the latest developments. As a lifetime expert, I've everything but voodoo to try and achieve that. But, we're still dealing with a .45, its trigger and its recoil. I've shot with high master shooters who shoot in the 2640's nearly every match. That's the point, "They're High Master Shooters". Theres a reason why you see 1 or 2 high masters and about 20 experts in a given 2700. Mostly, its because most can't shoot a .45. As far as shooting the .22 in pace with the .45?????? When I see it I'll believe, especially with beginning shooters.

Even with a 9mm, no matter if you use a 115g or not, you still have to load the thing to at least 1000-1050 fps for decent accuracy.

Like I've wriiten many times. Buying an accurized 9mm or .45acp TODAY, without knowing a friend or a connection or whatever has to be close to $3000, especially if a known guy is working on it. And if you want a 9mm and a .45 its $6000 or there-abouts. A Walther GSP combo, I doubt goes beyond $2500-$2700

You can say all you want, if you put a .32 and a .45 in the hands of a new shooter, I think you know the outcome.

Once again, if the new shooter has only facilities of 25 yards (like most indoor ranges here in the Northeast) and that's primarily what he practices and competes, as a beginner I think its more cost effective to learn the trade, so to speak.

As far as expense of loading?? Probably, the brass will be the most expensive thing. I've seen .32s shoot short line x ring all day. Proper load development is the key.

Everybody loves to talk about "what the champs use or shoot'. Gunny shot his first 100 slow fire without looking at his sights. Has to be mental discipline, and a positive mental attitude. No, I think Gunny was ahead of the curve way before he shot that 100.

thanks fellas, I've enjoyed the discussion

PS.. I got a Papa-Doc on the line..........trying for that first 100

I do agree with most of everything you two last posters have said. However, I've been around longer than I choose to mention, and to my dismay I've never made master. While its true due to nagging physical problems I haven't been able to travel to matches like I used to, I'm not fully in tune to the latest developments. As a lifetime expert, I've everything but voodoo to try and achieve that. But, we're still dealing with a .45, its trigger and its recoil. I've shot with high master shooters who shoot in the 2640's nearly every match. That's the point, "They're High Master Shooters". Theres a reason why you see 1 or 2 high masters and about 20 experts in a given 2700. Mostly, its because most can't shoot a .45. As far as shooting the .22 in pace with the .45?????? When I see it I'll believe, especially with beginning shooters.

Even with a 9mm, no matter if you use a 115g or not, you still have to load the thing to at least 1000-1050 fps for decent accuracy.

Like I've wriiten many times. Buying an accurized 9mm or .45acp TODAY, without knowing a friend or a connection or whatever has to be close to $3000, especially if a known guy is working on it. And if you want a 9mm and a .45 its $6000 or there-abouts. A Walther GSP combo, I doubt goes beyond $2500-$2700

You can say all you want, if you put a .32 and a .45 in the hands of a new shooter, I think you know the outcome.

Once again, if the new shooter has only facilities of 25 yards (like most indoor ranges here in the Northeast) and that's primarily what he practices and competes, as a beginner I think its more cost effective to learn the trade, so to speak.

As far as expense of loading?? Probably, the brass will be the most expensive thing. I've seen .32s shoot short line x ring all day. Proper load development is the key.

Everybody loves to talk about "what the champs use or shoot'. Gunny shot his first 100 slow fire without looking at his sights. Has to be mental discipline, and a positive mental attitude. No, I think Gunny was ahead of the curve way before he shot that 100.

thanks fellas, I've enjoyed the discussion

PS.. I got a Papa-Doc on the line..........trying for that first 100