I have been shooting air pistol (Lp10) and sports pistol (Partini sp22) for some years. My goal is to shoot 600 p in every dicipline, so I need som advice. ( I know that this goal is tad high :-) )
For some years I have tried to become stronger in different parts of the body (stomach, back, shoulder, elbow and wrist) mainly using gun and rubber band. I also do cardiovascular training.
I shoot a lot of pellets in white paper, do a lot of dry fire (bud probably not more than 50 %) and also fire live fire without targets.
When shooting, I follow the same routine every time : first grip pistol with left hand to aid correct grip with my right hand, taking care to have good contakt with web between first and second finger and ulnar part of palm. This to make sure that grip is always the same. Finger placement in the middle part of the distal part of trigger finger. Then I make the same stance, lift gun to make sure that direction is correct. Balance I try to place between feet, a little closer to toes than heel, never locking knees.In the beginning I moved the torso a little backward to balance the lift, but have chosen not to do this the last couple of years as I seem to be more stable in a «stronger» stance.
So , what advice do I need . Probably a lot, but my question is this. When I practice with my Scatt, I have noticed that I seem to be drawing the shots to the left and down as I keep fiering. As the muscles tires, the more the error comes. Of course, keep practice , but are there someone doing the same thing ? Is the grip not correct , and if so, how do I compensate in the beginning ? I live far from a coach, and also far from someone who can help me with pistol grip. Any changes I do, I usually do in small increments. The problem seem to be biggest with the Pardini, suggesting at pistol problem (grip) , but since the problem also happens with the Steyr, the shooter might be part of the problem ( Unlikely ?? :-) )
The problem seem to happen in single shots and series (I am not sure as I cannot confirm this). I think I can trace the change the instant before the click, that the front part of the pistol goes to the left, but this can also me fooling myself after watching the Scatt after the shot.
Any advice would be appreciated. Please ignore spelling errors and semantics, English is not my native language.
Some practice advice would be appreciated
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Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
Not sure if is what's happening with you, but when my shots start to drift down and left (7:30 to 8 o'clock, barely 8 ring), it's my head position. As I get in a groove, cruising along shooting mostly all 9s & 10s, if I'm not careful I loose focus and my head drops, and the shots follow.
After the fact, I can see the start of it before I shoot an 8, but I seldom notice the signs in advance of lost points.
This is what I'm working on this year. I KNOW the problem, (me, my lack of focus).
Remember (I try to) it is 60 1 shot matches, not 1 60 shot match. I have started shooting non standard length strings (7 shots, 13 shots, etc.).
It seems to help deter my "in match" score keeping/calculations.
Hope this helps. I'll be interested in other's responses.
After the fact, I can see the start of it before I shoot an 8, but I seldom notice the signs in advance of lost points.
This is what I'm working on this year. I KNOW the problem, (me, my lack of focus).
Remember (I try to) it is 60 1 shot matches, not 1 60 shot match. I have started shooting non standard length strings (7 shots, 13 shots, etc.).
It seems to help deter my "in match" score keeping/calculations.
Hope this helps. I'll be interested in other's responses.
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
Mahan seems to have a good handle on it. I would add, that when you get one of those "off" shots, go into dry fire mode until you've worked out the problem.
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
Personally, I've found that those low left 7 and 8 shots (being a right handed shooter) are the result of prolonging the aiming phase beyond my ability to clearly keep the front sight in its place.
A few years back, returning to competition, I found That I didn't have the stamina I was accustomed to, so I had to learn to be a quick shooter (that is, the shot fires itself in the natural wobble zone).
Curiously, I've found myself shooting close to my PB, I can keep my matches near 560 in an hour or so, and there are very few 7 o 8's: obviously, there is a lack of tens, but I shoot much more relaxed.
Previously (20 years ago) every match was a test of endurance, now I can say I enjoy them
My two cents, for what they are worth.
A few years back, returning to competition, I found That I didn't have the stamina I was accustomed to, so I had to learn to be a quick shooter (that is, the shot fires itself in the natural wobble zone).
Curiously, I've found myself shooting close to my PB, I can keep my matches near 560 in an hour or so, and there are very few 7 o 8's: obviously, there is a lack of tens, but I shoot much more relaxed.
Previously (20 years ago) every match was a test of endurance, now I can say I enjoy them
My two cents, for what they are worth.
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
Renzo - I think that's an excellent point about time of hold. I am really trying to work on abandoning the shot if it isn't developing on schedule. Any time I hold on and try to work a shot for longer than average, the results (to use a technical term) suck. ALWAYS. I SERIOUSLY CAN'T REMEMBER A 'GOOD SHOT' RESULTING FROM HANGING ON AND TRYING TO SALVAGE AFTER A REASONABLE TIME. DOESN'T HAPPEN, at least for me.
Rover - excellent suggestion on the dry firing. In A/P at least (the really important competition), USE THE TIME;SETTLE YOURSELF; 60 1 SHOT MATCHES (credit to Don Nygord for this; of course he was smiling (ok laughing at me) when he told me this).
PS Rover: I should confess I still haven't shot a score with my new Pardini K12 as high as my best with the K58 I sold your compadre (opponent, competitor, whatever)
I had hoped to get down there, but my wife has been having some health issues, so not this year, but someday. Can't let you guys have all the fun.
Rover - excellent suggestion on the dry firing. In A/P at least (the really important competition), USE THE TIME;SETTLE YOURSELF; 60 1 SHOT MATCHES (credit to Don Nygord for this; of course he was smiling (ok laughing at me) when he told me this).
PS Rover: I should confess I still haven't shot a score with my new Pardini K12 as high as my best with the K58 I sold your compadre (opponent, competitor, whatever)
I had hoped to get down there, but my wife has been having some health issues, so not this year, but someday. Can't let you guys have all the fun.
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
What you're doing all sounds good, I'd say your problem is simple fatigue - your back and wrist start to relax and so the shot drops into the 7 or 8.
That or over-trying and hunching over and forward.
Are you careful with consistency in positioning your head? That can have some surprising effects.
As your head tilts forwards the front sight effectively drops and you have to work to raise it again.
What you can do
- Strength exercises - Actual physical exercises not just endless aiming exercises. Isometric exercises build strength only very slowly. Dynamic exercise is usually better.
- Try to release the shot earlier instead of later. Practice releasing the shot just as, or before, the sights have settled into the ideal zone.
- Use shooting glasses so you can tell if your head is positioned consistently
- Consider a more vertical raked grip. Dropped wrist grips seem better but in practice they're more fatiguing and your muscles work less efficiently. (Many people disagree with this advice)
That or over-trying and hunching over and forward.
Are you careful with consistency in positioning your head? That can have some surprising effects.
As your head tilts forwards the front sight effectively drops and you have to work to raise it again.
What you can do
- Strength exercises - Actual physical exercises not just endless aiming exercises. Isometric exercises build strength only very slowly. Dynamic exercise is usually better.
- Try to release the shot earlier instead of later. Practice releasing the shot just as, or before, the sights have settled into the ideal zone.
- Use shooting glasses so you can tell if your head is positioned consistently
- Consider a more vertical raked grip. Dropped wrist grips seem better but in practice they're more fatiguing and your muscles work less efficiently. (Many people disagree with this advice)
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
Thank you all for your replies.
About the head. I think this is a valid point. I use shooting glasses and try to keep the head straight, but I have noticed that during 5 shot series I tend to tilt the head to the right. I will try to focus on keeping my head head straight. (My wife will call this an impossible task.)
Shooting non-standard strings : good idea, I will try this. Also, I will try to abort when possible when the shots starts to drift.
Endurance , fatigue or loss of stamina. I think this might be a problem. The shots tend to be better the faster I shoot, but the control seems less. This might be a mental problem. (My wife nods her head) . But I will change my training toward more dynamic training, and also find a quick rythm.
The angle of grip – I will consider this, this might be the reason for fatigue setting in too soon. If I where to change – which gun would be worth trying out. I know you can’t by points (or love ?) but when possible I can try another gun for comparison. Will FWB 93 ? be the best choice ??
I hope I don’t tire you with this, but the inner stance is difficult to get to grips with, and even more difficult to change in a controlled way.
About the head. I think this is a valid point. I use shooting glasses and try to keep the head straight, but I have noticed that during 5 shot series I tend to tilt the head to the right. I will try to focus on keeping my head head straight. (My wife will call this an impossible task.)
Shooting non-standard strings : good idea, I will try this. Also, I will try to abort when possible when the shots starts to drift.
Endurance , fatigue or loss of stamina. I think this might be a problem. The shots tend to be better the faster I shoot, but the control seems less. This might be a mental problem. (My wife nods her head) . But I will change my training toward more dynamic training, and also find a quick rythm.
The angle of grip – I will consider this, this might be the reason for fatigue setting in too soon. If I where to change – which gun would be worth trying out. I know you can’t by points (or love ?) but when possible I can try another gun for comparison. Will FWB 93 ? be the best choice ??
I hope I don’t tire you with this, but the inner stance is difficult to get to grips with, and even more difficult to change in a controlled way.
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
Take advantage of the time you have between shoots to rest as well. I have a little ritual I go through after every shot in free pistol, unloading it, verifying the chamber is empty, setting the pistol down on it's rest, etc. . It takes about 30 seconds, then I have another one to verify I'm ready to shoot the next shot where I load my pistol, set the trigger, check my weight distribution, body lean, etc. This takes a little under 30 seconds. So even before I load another round into my pistol, I've given my arm and neck about a minute of rest. I tend to be fast on trigger, without a lot of settling time. If it doesn't settle quickly, the gun goes down. I take at least an 18 count (don't ask me why I settled on that number), before I bring it back up. I found this dramatically decreased my fatigue level, and left me much more confident in how my arm was going to hold up in the later rounds.
I used to be very bad about this in dry fire. For whatever reason, the number of times I could make the gun go "click" with a good sight picture, was more important to me then the whole process. I've seen far more improvement since I've made a point of integrating the process into my dry fire, and the "click" is now more of a byproduct of everything than the end goal.
-Jenrick
I used to be very bad about this in dry fire. For whatever reason, the number of times I could make the gun go "click" with a good sight picture, was more important to me then the whole process. I've seen far more improvement since I've made a point of integrating the process into my dry fire, and the "click" is now more of a byproduct of everything than the end goal.
-Jenrick
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
"Also, I will try to abort when possible when the shots starts to drift."
Do you mean when the sights start to drift? You should try to do it before that.
Most people hold on well after it al starts to drift - hoping to make it better somehow.
Do you mean when the sights start to drift? You should try to do it before that.
Most people hold on well after it al starts to drift - hoping to make it better somehow.
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
If I see the sights tend to drift off more than usual tremor, I abort. Maybe I'm not good enough to see all of these shots, so the shot tend to wander off to the left, or lower left. From what I read from your replies, the first task it to identify and abort when sights drift. If I'm not able to see this, I should take the shots to the left/ lower left as a warning, at least when training or during air pistol match, and abort. During standard pistol you have some time during the first 4 series, but not during 20 or 10 sec series.
Re: Some practice advice would be appreciated
If you are right handed, shots low & left are most often caused by being too aggressive with the trigger. If they are really far out (like a 6), it would qualify as a trigger jerk. However, it doesn't much of a spike in last minute pressure to pull shots out into the 8 ring.
This can result from a couple things. Either the idea that it looks perfect NOW, and you go for it, or you've been holding a while & a part of you decides to force it off rather than abort.
As long as you think about the process of actuating the trigger smoothly, and NOT about firing the shot, you should be able to get a clean release. Depending on the setup of your trigger, this can either be thinking about constantly increasing pressure on the trigger, or constantly moving it to the rear. The pistol WILL fire if you do either one. As soon as you hesitate because things don't look right, you should abort. If you get into the habit of starting & stopping your trigger squeeze, it's a great way to develop "chicken finger", and that will bring on a host of troubles.
This can result from a couple things. Either the idea that it looks perfect NOW, and you go for it, or you've been holding a while & a part of you decides to force it off rather than abort.
As long as you think about the process of actuating the trigger smoothly, and NOT about firing the shot, you should be able to get a clean release. Depending on the setup of your trigger, this can either be thinking about constantly increasing pressure on the trigger, or constantly moving it to the rear. The pistol WILL fire if you do either one. As soon as you hesitate because things don't look right, you should abort. If you get into the habit of starting & stopping your trigger squeeze, it's a great way to develop "chicken finger", and that will bring on a host of troubles.