TargetTalk

While I've been waiting for my Morini to arrive I've been watching all the World Cup finals on YouTube from the past several years. One thing that I've noticed and am a little concerned with is I notice quite a few of the competitors with their fingers inside the trigger guard on the triggers when they are not pointing down range ready to shoot. This is a big no no with firearms in my world of IDPA, IPSC, Hunting, and basic defense shooting. This practice of resting their fingers on the trigger when not ready to shoot seems like it could reinforce bad habits that could possibly translate to firearms, especially in our youth. I'm curious why the judges at these World Cup events allow this?

C

Its allowed in ISSF and always has been. As long as its pointed downrange, resting on the bench or pointing at the target, its safe.
ISSF does not mandate use of safety catches either.

cloudswimmer wrote:This practice of resting their fingers on the trigger when not ready to shoot seems like it could reinforce bad habits that could possibly translate to firearms, especially in our youth. I'm curious why the judges at these World Cup events allow this?

Are the pistols pointing in a safe direction?

If so then what's the problem?

Because in ISSF we are not concerned about putting our finger on the trigger
whilst drawing from a holster and shooting ourself in the foot.
Ideally the finger should not be on the trigger until pointing downrange,ie over
45deg and towards the butts.

cloudswimmer wrote:One thing that I've noticed and am a little concerned with is I notice quite a few of the competitors with their fingers inside the trigger guard on the triggers when they are not pointing down range ready to shoot.

The few competitors that DO reach the World Cup finals must be doing things correctly for them to reach this level.

These athletes have highly developed muscle memory and they can literally call their own shots. I see no problems in the transition to firearms, as long as their guns are pointed in a safe direction.

I see no problem transferring back and forth between slow-fire 10m and firearms. Back in the day, I shot more than 20,000 rounds of pellets through a Steyr 10m pistol every year, using the trigger control noted. However (here in the states) I instinctively place the trigger finger on the trigger guard when the object in hand is a firearm. Can't explain it, really.

Trigger control is such a big part of the ISSF game. I have found that with enough practice, I can "bounce" my trigger finger (on-off-on-off) on the 20-30 gram trigger of my TOZ-35 free pistol and the sear will not trip. Others try it (muzzle down range of course), and..... Nooo.

With such finger sensitivity, I think placing a trigger finger on a 5-pound firearm trigger is like resting it on the granite slab of a building. Yes, it looks unsafe to a firearm shooter. But it's all about muscle memory, as previously noted.

A young shooter came to a local free pistol match a few years back. He'd shot air pistol in college, and borrowed a free pistol from one of the organizers of the match. He was in the habit of not only resting his finger on the trigger while his air pistol was on the bench, but actually taking up the slack & applying a bit of pressure. Needless to say, his muscle memory put 6 shots in the dirt during the match. Fortunately, it was an outdoor range and the benches were narrow enough that he didn't hit the bench.

I have no problem with putting your finger on the trigger once it's off the bench, but that's it. It doesn't take very much training to learn to do it that way, and it saves a lot of wear & tear on the benches.

Gwhite wrote:A young shooter came to a local free pistol match a few years back. He'd shot air pistol in college, and borrowed a free pistol from one of the organizers of the match. He was in the habit of not only resting his finger on the trigger while his air pistol was on the bench, but actually taking up the slack & applying a bit of pressure. Needless to say, his muscle memory put 6 shots in the dirt during the match. Fortunately, it was an outdoor range and the benches were narrow enough that he didn't hit the bench.

I have no problem with putting your finger on the trigger once it's off the bench, but that's it. It doesn't take very much training to learn to do it that way, and it saves a lot of wear & tear on the benches.

That's an EXCELLENT clarification. Off the bench means you're in the act of aiming/shooting, not messing around. Good catch! ;-)

It's all about safety, followed by competency.

When I was shooting CF and Std Pistol I would quite happily wait at the ready position with all of the first stage weight taken up.

The only time I didn't do that was at a match where there was a low brick wall just at the front edge of the firing point. Safety fears took over from confidence in my ability. I shot badly.

In several hundreds of thousands of rounds I never shot a worm (or damaged a floor tile).

Gwhite wrote:A young shooter came to a local free pistol match a few years back. He'd shot air pistol in college, and borrowed a free pistol from one of the organizers of the match. He was in the habit of not only resting his finger on the trigger while his air pistol was on the bench, but actually taking up the slack & applying a bit of pressure. Needless to say, his muscle memory put 6 shots in the dirt during the match. Fortunately, it was an outdoor range and the benches were narrow enough that he didn't hit the bench.

I have no problem with putting your finger on the trigger once it's off the bench, but that's it. It doesn't take very much training to learn to do it that way, and it saves a lot of wear & tear on the benches.

That's almost impossible to do when shooting FP. If you try to find the trigger when raising the pistol you're losing valuable time and also you'll have to concentrate in NOT FIRING those extremely light trigger pulls when touching the blade instead of your aiming.

David Levene wrote:

cloudswimmer wrote:This practice of resting their fingers on the trigger when not ready to shoot seems like it could reinforce bad habits that could possibly translate to firearms, especially in our youth. I'm curious why the judges at these World Cup events allow this?

Are the pistols pointing in a safe direction?

If so then what's the problem?

Well for instance Jin Jongoh I think is his name, immediately after he wins the match, swings around to face the spectators and cameras, points the gun up in the air with his right hand, and with his left his fist, and poses for the cameras, all while his finger is still resting on the trigger. Obviously he had taken his last shot to win the match and the gun was unloaded so no one is going to get hurt, but at an IPSC or IPDA match with a firearm, that could possibly have gotten him not only DQ'd, but thrown off the range. In my world it doesn't matter what caliber or where you're at, you never point a gun anywhere with your finger on the trigger other than where you intend to shoot. Just a pet peeve I guess. I have tremendous respect for these athletes talents, just not for their gun safety etiquette :)

cloudswimmer wrote:Well for instance Jin Jongoh I think is his name, immediately after he wins the match, swings around to face the spectators and cameras, points the gun up in the air with his right hand, and with his left his fist, and poses for the cameras, all while his finger is still resting on the trigger. Obviously he had taken his last shot to win the match and the gun was unloaded so no one is going to get hurt, but at an IPSC or IPDA match with a firearm, that could possibly have gotten him not only DQ'd, but thrown off the range. In my world it doesn't matter what caliber or where you're at, you never point a gun anywhere with your finger on the trigger other than where you intend to shoot. Just a pet peeve I guess. I have tremendous respect for these athletes talents, just not for their gun safety etiquette :)

That's completely different from having a finger on the trigger during a match and pointed down range, breaks the existing ISSF rules, would likely break the rules of any range he was on, and should not be allowed.

If I were RO I'd DQ him on the spot, whoever he is.

cloudswimmer wrote:http://youtu.be/sPcO58Pk6Z8

I thought that the topic was ISSF Air Pistol and Safety.

Seems like OP cannot make the disconnect between Practical shooting vs. target shooting.

There is literally no reason not to be pointing your Pistol in a safe direction when shooting ISSF so if you squeeze one off through accident/negligence surely the 10pt penalty is punishment enough. Probably an extremely sound reason to come down on anyone not pointing their gear in the right direction like a ton of bricks.

Heard some storied of the bad old days people walking down the range with a Free Pistol 'On'. Hard case, but probably has no place in the modern game.

Interesting question of safety. A primary concern of our sport but it is important to make a distinction between perceived risk vs. actual risk.

Chur.

Gwhite wrote:A young shooter came to a local free pistol match a few years back. He'd shot air pistol in college, and borrowed a free pistol from one of the organizers of the match. He was in the habit of not only resting his finger on the trigger while his air pistol was on the bench, but actually taking up the slack & applying a bit of pressure. Needless to say, his muscle memory put 6 shots in the dirt during the match.

In one of the few free pistol matches I've shot, there was another experienced first timer in free pistol This particular jarhead (that's a compliment) was also National champion in bullseye pistol more than a few times. He managed to put 18 shots into the dirt, IIRC. A quick learner. he won the next FP match he entered.

Safety is as safety does.

cloudswimmer wrote:http://youtu.be/sPcO58Pk6Z8

Defensive pistol training and ISSF competitions are two different things.

ISSF is not training for other disciplines, ISSF - as recognised by inclusion in the Olympics - is the pinnacle of the marksmanship sports and as such is as esoteric as people want it to be.

What else can be suggested, the archers shouldn't string an arrow until they're ready to draw the bow? The runners should wear combat boots and a 20lb pack to make it closer to military training? Shotgunners should go back to live birds?

I'm quite sure AP shooters will stop resting their fingers on the trigger on the same day IPSC shooters stop running around with loaded guns.

The rules are so ponderous now that one needs a Philadelphia lawyer to know them all and interpret them. I'm sure that there is some ISSF bureaucrat somewhere who could write pages of rules regarding this non-issue in a New York minute. If an air pistol's muzzle is pointed in a safe direction downrange, there is no safety issue. There is the danger of shooting a premature shot that could cost a competitor a bucket full of points.

You're no fun! Why bring common sense into a topic that so many are prepared to whine about.