TargetTalk

I'm considering a purchase of a new pistol that I would use in EIC matches. I currently shoot Service Rifle, and the choices there are pretty easy. You get an upper from White Oak, Compass Lake, Keystone Accuracy, etc., and then get a lower with a Geissele trigger. You're then ready to compete and probably won't ever be limited by your equipment.

For Service Pistol, there doesn't appear to be such a well defined path. I wanted to hear what might be a good starting point as well as what I'm other options might be available for progression as one improves. I'm interested only in 9MM unless there is some compelling reason to get a .45 ACP. I'm in California, so I'm limited to what's on our roster.

A friend said that if you wanted to get a pistol that would get the job done and be ready to shoot, one could go to a company like Mountain Competition Pistol and get an accurized M9 and have a pistol that would be suitable to use as one's skills became greater and never have any doubt about the pistol's capabilities.
http://www.mountaincompetitionpistols.c ... nalMatchM9

Thanks,

Mark

With the pistol rule changes your options have expanded greatly.

Find a well built wad gun with a good trigger and iron sights in 45acp and all you have to do is set the trigger to 4lbs, load up some 185gr JHP from Zero or purchase loaded rounds from Zero or Atlanta Arms and you have an X ring gun.

- Dave

mhbower wrote:I'm considering a purchase of a new pistol that I would use in EIC matches. I currently shoot Service Rifle, and the choices there are pretty easy. You get an upper from White Oak, Compass Lake, Keystone Accuracy, etc., and then get a lower with a Geissele trigger. You're then ready to compete and probably won't ever be limited by your equipment.

For Service Pistol, there doesn't appear to be such a well defined path. I wanted to hear what might be a good starting point as well as what I'm other options might be available for progression as one improves. I'm interested only in 9MM unless there is some compelling reason to get a .45 ACP. I'm in California, so I'm limited to what's on our roster.

A friend said that if you wanted to get a pistol that would get the job done and be ready to shoot, one could go to a company like Mountain Competition Pistol and get an accurized M9 and have a pistol that would be suitable to use as one's skills became greater and never have any doubt about the pistol's capabilities.
http://www.mountaincompetitionpistols.c ... nalMatchM9

Thanks,

Mark

There are plenty of used M9s on the market that will hold good groups, for a while, but because of the aluminum components of the Beretta, the question is for how long?

Don't get me wrong, I love my Beretta, and the gunsmith who built it, guarantees accuracy, with a lifetime warranty.

With the rule changes this year, regarding ammo, most people neither need nor have the skills necessary to benefit from an accurized M9. The primary reason people like it, is for reduced kick in sustained fire, which isn't much of a problem with a 45 when you are allowed to use 185JHP's in the LEG match under the new ammo rules.

You will do just as well or better for a whole lot less money, by buying a Springfield Range officer, and getting a gunsmith to do a trigger job, and possibly put in a competition barrel.


There is a long thread on this board from several years ago, about dealing with Mountain Competition pistols. Some people are very happy. Others had loads of trouble with their delivery times, and their customer service.

If you need a referral for a gunsmith, there are several who post on this board, who can set up a Springfield Range officer to do everything you will need it to do. If you can find one in state where you live, it would be better because shipping pistols is quite a bit more expensive, and has more restrictions than shipping a rifle.

[quote]For Service Pistol, there doesn't appear to be such a well defined path/quote]

With the new rules that took effect this year, a 45 is competitive using Zero or Nosler 185 jhp's, as the others said. If you're on a budget, a Springfield range officer will work, even in stock form.

mhbower wrote: I currently shoot Service Rifle, and the choices there are pretty easy.

They won't be starting next year. CMP is determined to make service rifle as much of a Charlie Foxtrot as they made service pistol this year.

john bickar wrote:

mhbower wrote: I currently shoot Service Rifle, and the choices there are pretty easy.

They won't be starting next year. CMP is determined to make service rifle as much of a Charlie Foxtrot as they made service pistol this year.

I could go on for quite a while as to how the Service pistol match has been made both uninteresting and unshootable by the casual shooter or even the average to good wad gun shooter.


Used to be, back in the day, they could get a lot of people to shoot Service Pistol because the CMP provided the ammo, loaned you a gun if you needed one, and charged a dollar for the match.

Now the CMP charges at least ten for every match, and if you don't want to work for free as a match director, you will need to charge a competitor at least 15.

Last year when they added the rimfire EIC, that means that there are thirty dollars of matches tacked on to the forty or fifty most of us are already paying to shoot the entire 2700 at a regional.

That is fifty cents a shot folks, plus ammo, and an extra hour, and a half standing on the firing line since there has to be a separate relay for the .22 EIC.

This, after most of us out in fly over country have spent three hours or more getting to the match, and six hours shooting an entire 2700.


Can you say not worth it?

At those prices and a minimum score for LEG points, you can't round up people off the street to shoot anymore.

And those of us, who are not feeling particularly peppy after seven hours of wind and sun, are not coughing up the cash to make sure they can award LEG points if *anyone* qualifies.

I expect to see the LEG match die a quick death out in the hinterlands, and become a Perry/CMP games only event.

Actually the rule allowing you to shoot 2 more matches is helping us locally. People would hold off shooting our Regional or State EIC matches because there were more legs awarded at the bigger Regional or State matches. I think for the first time in a long time we gave out 2 legs verses barely (or not) having enough for 1. The ammo and gun changes have helped too.

The minimum qualification score (which I support) has reduced the number of legs handed out at some events.

- Dave

dronning wrote:Actually the rule allowing you to shoot 2 more matches is helping us locally. People would hold off shooting our Regional or State EIC matches because there were more legs awarded at the bigger Regional or State matches. I think for the first time in a long time we gave out 2 legs verses barely (or not) having enough for 1. The ammo and gun changes have helped too.

The minimum qualification score (which I support) has reduced the number of legs handed out at some events.

- Dave

It might for a few years, if you live in a area densely populated with shooters. For us, it has done nothing, but reduce participation. Because of the cost, and the travel times most people who have Legged out don't continue to shoot the match, so it is a six or seven person match if we can have it at all.


With the institution of the qualifying score, which I support, although I believe that they have made it high enough to be counter productive, and there was no need to also limit the number of matches. The qualifying score alone should have been enough to solve their problems of poor shooters being able to LEG out.
(I know a few people who when they don't make the qualifying score, just don't hand in their score card because they know there is no point. Just eats a match they might be able to shoot later.)

With a high qualifying score, there also was no reason to keep the requirement for a hard LEG. Who cares if you shoot a 254 over 15 other shooters, or only 5?

The really serious people about the LEG match, shoot their service pistol through the 2700. I am not willing to do that, so the EIC has become an after thought for me. A match I am only willing to shoot locally to help the match director get his six people, or on the last day of a three day regional.

The only place I actually enjoy shooting the match is Phoenix, because of their hardball 900, which is a really good warm up.

Now at regular matches, it is even less attractive because I have to sit there for an hour, or shoot the EIC rimfire match also.
I have noticed most of my friends, tried that once or twice, and decided they would wait to shoot 22 EIC till after the high masters had Legged out.

Two more matches a year, became one more for me, because they added the extra match at Perry.

Twice now at Perry I have not shot the LEG match, because I was shooting it on the way out, the start of a twenty hour drive home, and I didnt want to have to spend an hour finding a place to clean and dry out my gun, as it was raining during the match.

Even though that is pure laziness tiredness? on my part, it can't be overlooked as a human motivator or demotivator.

The new qualification score is hurting participation. I have seen new shooters say there is no reason for them to shoot because they can't shoot over the new minimum score. For a rule change that was supposed to bring in new shooters, that sure was counter productive.

Now for the issue of maitaining a level of difficulty in getting the Distinguished Badge. The CMP should remove the minimum score and the hard leg, keep the limited matches and require a NTI leg.

Chipping away at your leg points at an EIC match with 10 shooters getting 6 points at a time is a completely different experience than shooting the NTI match at Camp Perry. A shooter who can leg in the NTI is worthy of earning the Distinguished Badge. This will also keep a sense of nostalgia by having to travel to Camp Perry, shoot in the NTI match against the nation's best shooters, and going up on stage to get your badge.

So it should be......
30 leg points AND an NTI leg, 5 match a year max, NO minimum cut score.

To get back to the OP's original question,

Are you in Southern Cal? If so, you're welcome to try my accurized Beretta 92. I've gotten 22 points with it so far.


Mark Freedman

Would this pistol be an option??
I'm told a stock Springfield Trophy Match 1911 is an approved pistol now for EIC matches. (4 lb trigger weight). The pistol has a beaver tail grip safety
and an extended mag WELL! Would it then follow that you could install a grip safety and mag well on a 1911 A1 and the pistol would be legal?
Thanks for any input. NMBUZZ

nmbuzz wrote:Would this pistol be an option??
I'm told a stock Springfield Trophy Match 1911 is an approved pistol now for EIC matches. (4 lb trigger weight). The pistol has a beaver tail grip safety
and an extended mag WELL! Would it then follow that you could install a grip safety and mag well on a 1911 A1 and the pistol would be legal?
Thanks for any input. NMBUZZ

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf



The best I can do Buzz, is post the link here. If the rules seem unclear regarding your questions, I suggest a call to the CMP. Kate

Yeah I looked at 6.3.2 a number of times. Addresses extended mag RELEASE but not mag WELL! Guess contacting them is next. Thanks Buzz

Depends how much you want to spend. I earned my first 22 points, which include two hard legs with a stock Springfield milspec + the following mods. Trigger job using existing parts, new barrel bushing, tighten frame and slide, had adjustable sights cut in, flat mainspring housing, then added some skateboard grip tape to the front strap.
With the new rules go get a Springfield range officer have someone do a trigger job and new barrel bushing, and some skateboard grip tape and you can be competitive. Then go buy a Nelson 1911 conversion and you can swap between the two for the 22lr EIC and the service pistol EIC. That would be the cheapest way to go about it. For ammo reload your own(your a rifle guy...i'm guessing you have what you need). I reload my own for the 50yd and 25yd line with 185jhp from Zero. For matches i use my own 25yd load and Atlantic Arms or ASYM 185jhp match for the 50yd.


Another option is have a really nice tricked out custom gun build by one of the many bullseye 1911 gunsmiths around. To many to list, but if you go that route it will be $$. One plus side is you will have an one of a kind gun made exactly how you want it.

The Range Officer isn't an option here in California. I think I'm going to get a Springfield Armory 1911 Target mode. It has some improvements over the standard models and also an adjustable rear sight. I'll have to try some of the AYSM or Atlanta 185 JHP match ammo to see how it works. I'll also be getting set up to reload. I'll check out the 22 conversion options for practice without having to spend time reloading.
Thanks for all of the suggestions.
Mark

mhbower wrote:The Range Officer isn't an option here in California. I think I'm going to get a Springfield Armory 1911 Target mode. It has some improvements over the standard models and also an adjustable rear sight. I'll have to try some of the AYSM or Atlanta 185 JHP match ammo to see how it works. I'll also be getting set up to reload. I'll check out the 22 conversion options for practice without having to spend time reloading.
Thanks for all of the suggestions.
Mark

Not sure exactly why it isn't on that extensive list the state of California puts out, as it is not mechanically different from many that are.

However, the Springfield Range officer does have an adjustable sight.

My advice, find an old Colt series 70 somewhere in a pawn shop, gun store or thru a private seller, and have a local gunsmith install a new barrel, a competition bushing and do a trigger job.

All California pistols have to go through an approval process to get on a list before they can be sold. The law had a provision that once micro-stamping was readily available (or something similarly worded) that it would be a requirement. There are some other requirements in the law as it relates to magazine cutoff (if I recall correctly) that can be problematic. All of this results in many new model guns not being available for sale in California. The Range Officer is one of those pistols.
Mark

I would try a Loaded NM Frame , similar to Range Officer. Change the Barrel and sights and you are good to go,


BUT the FRAME Has to NM in the serial Number.


Other option is a used Colt Gold Cup Series 70 they cost $1000 to $1300.


Spend a little more a Les Baer Premier

Ttgoods wrote:BUT the FRAME Has to NM in the serial Number.

Curious as to why the frame has to have "NM" in the serial number ?

Clarence

C. Perkins wrote:

Ttgoods wrote:BUT the FRAME Has to NM in the serial Number.

Curious as to why the frame has to have "NM" in the serial number ?

Clarence

I believe the NM means the gun was assembled in the USA. I've also heard it means that US gunsmiths cut the rails in for the frame and fitted the slide and a match barrel.