TargetTalk

For a while now I've been reading up on SCATT usage and recently got one. Interpreting and using the data seems to be the trick with electronic trainers. Hope I can save some folks the web searching I did finding this stuff.

SCATT FAQ http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/S ... hooter.htm
1 of 3 blog posts about SCATT interpretation http://www.gunandrun.com/2015/06/interp ... races.html
2 of 3 blog posts about SCATT interpretation http://www.gunandrun.com/2015/06/interp ... art-2.html
3 of 3 blog posts about SCATT interpretation http://www.gunandrun.com/2015/06/interp ... art-3.html
TargetTalk SCATT info (good thread) http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?p=111352
TargetTalk Trigger Training with RIKA http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=11478
Trigger training with RIKA http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/rik ... rwork.html
Unofficial SCATT manual http://www.gunsnot.com/pdfs/scatt%20man ... -18-03.pdf
Specificity of shooting training with the optoelectronic target http://www.actabio.pwr.wroc.pl/Vol11No4/9.pdf
USA shooting SCATT presentation https://www.brainshark.com/usashooting/ ... tx=preview
Pilkguns elec trainer part 1 (practical) http://pilkguns.com/hometrainerpart1.shtml
Pilkguns elec trainer part 2 (interpretation) http://pilkguns.com/hometrainerpart2.shtml

Here's some more general coaching and pistol training info from USA Shooting:
USA shooting coaches education online presentations http://www.usashooting.org/membership/c ... -education
USA shooting pistol shooting/training resources http://www.usashooting.org/11-resources ... olshooting

Thank you for collecting together some really interesting articles about using the Scatt and other electronic trainers. There is so much to understand and apply when interpreting the data obtained.

Couple of interesting things.

I was trying to get two shooters to shoot side by side with scatt but they kept on picking up each other's shots. I recently found in the tools>Options - Firing Point is a parameter to coordinate the scatt transmitter with the scatt target. I haven't tried it yet but there is also a switch on the side of the scatt target sensor that I believe is supposed to match the Firing point number parameter.

The F-Coefficient is an estimate of barrel movement (simulated recoil) after the triggering line stops. What I don't believe is that the barrel will always move in the same direction as the last .1-.2 seconds of the triggering line. Two things to consider here... 1) Recoil of a barrel is generally up. 2) The time that a pellet or a .22lr will remain in the barrel is very very short. .003 seconds (according to this link http://rec.guns.narkive.com/x2aUbh6n/ho ... the-barrel) or, more for a pellet. So having an F-coefficient of 15-25 is nothing more than creating a simulated flyer. However, a very low f-Coefficient should produce more accurate results or at least, less than inaccurate results when the real world recoil of the rifle is considered.

This link provides some info on it:

http://www.gunandrun.com/2015/05/though ... t.html?m=1

Here is the diagram that he demonstrates the effect of the f-coefficient on a shot:



Note the length of the triggering (blue line) and distance of the shot from it when it is set to an f-coefficient of 37.

If the triggering starts .2 seconds and then ends when the shot brakes, then the (F-coefficient) movement of the barrel should be no more than the time the bullet spends in the barrel divided by the triggering length ... or 1/66th of the distance of the entire blue line. So the F-Coefficient should be set very low to simulate the shot break and barrel exit distance.

When Live firing on a scatt, I believe the f-coefficient should be 0 or at the most, 5 for air rifle.

Its not barrel/triggering time it is (POA velocity)/(time of flight).

The f-coef controls how far the projectile is 'flung' from the firing time (where trace changes from blue to red) to impact time. F-coef considers such things as barrel length (longer barrel = higher radial velocity based on angular velocity) & projectile speed. See the suggested F-coef in the unofficial SCATT manual from gunsnot in my original post. Note F-coef for air pistol is lower than air rifle at 10m. 22cal rifle at 50m has suggested f-coef of 80.

The flung distance is the velocity component given to the projectile by the barrel movement (in the same direction as the blue line is last pointing) multiplied by time of flight. Barrel movement is function of hold & triggering quality. Not so much about recoil. From the link you included:

"When a shot is fired the amount and direction of muzzle movement will have a significant effect on the fall of shot. If the muzzle is moving as the shot exits the bore then the bullet will continue to move in the same direction as it flies down the range (Newton's 1st law of motion.) The slower the movement of the muzzle, the less the shot will be pushed out from the centre of hold. Bullet velocity, distance to target and other factors will also affect how big the effect is.

SCATT attempts to simulate this effect. Manipulating the F-Coefficient allows the user to tune how far the shot is thrown to simulate their discipline."

bdutton,

live firing with scat in air we have also found that close to 0 for F was the most accurate with paper or electronic score.

No opportunity to compare in 22, but I agree recoil is far more important.

I think its a bad idea to use scatt to shoot for score.

Two thought provoking questions,
F exaggerates the errors, and decreasing the exaggerated error in training, could result in a better match score?

Or does it train the shooter to expect a lower score, and the expected score is what we get?

redschietti wrote:bdutton,

live firing with scat in air we have also found that close to 0 for F was the most accurate with paper or electronic score.

No opportunity to compare in 22, but I agree recoil is far more important.

I think its a bad idea to use scatt to shoot for score.

Two thought provoking questions,
F exaggerates the errors, and decreasing the exaggerated error in training, could result in a better match score?

Or does it train the shooter to expect a lower score, and the expected score is what we get?

I agree that score on scatt is a lot less important than the rest of the data captured.

Now if only i can get my daughter to agree.

;)

wasatch wrote:Its not barrel/triggering time it is (POA velocity)/(time of flight).

The f-coef controls how far the projectile is 'flung' from the firing time (where trace changes from blue to red) to impact time. F-coef considers such things as barrel length (longer barrel = higher radial velocity based on angular velocity) & projectile speed. See the suggested F-coef in the unofficial SCATT manual from gunsnot in my original post. Note F-coef for air pistol is lower than air rifle at 10m. 22cal rifle at 50m has suggested f-coef of 80.

The flung distance is the velocity component given to the projectile by the barrel movement (in the same direction as the blue line is last pointing) divided by time of flight. Barrel movement is function of hold & triggering quality. Not so much about recoil. From the link you included:

"When a shot is fired the amount and direction of muzzle movement will have a significant effect on the fall of shot. If the muzzle is moving as the shot exits the bore then the bullet will continue to move in the same direction as it flies down the range (Newton's 1st law of motion.) The slower the movement of the muzzle, the less the shot will be pushed out from the centre of hold. Bullet velocity, distance to target and other factors will also affect how big the effect is.

SCATT attempts to simulate this effect. Manipulating the F-Coefficient allows the user to tune how far the shot is thrown to simulate their discipline."

So let me see if I can wrap my small brain around this... the f-coefficient is NOT calculating simulated recoil but rather the inertia of the bullet as it travels down the barrel in the direction of the last recorded triggering movement? Does one also need to factor in the barrel length and speed of the projectile when calculating the f-coefficient (yes).

Will actual recoil have an effect on barrel movement immediately after the shot breaks and before the bullet exits the barrel?

Since many have said, they almost always have to dial down the f-coefficient when live firing, why should it be set higher for dry fire?

From what I've read, i think we should set an F-coef that produces groups similar to what we shoot live.
I've also read that to emphasize triggering errors the F-coef can be set higher than normal.
Or set it to zero to feel better about triggering :-)

Don't know.

Don't know.

But like red said the value of SCATT isn't the score. I haven't yet tried live firing on my SCATT. Might be interesting and i could see if my SCATT groups reflect my live groups.

wasatch wrote:I haven't yet tried live firing on my SCATT. Might be interesting and i could see if my SCATT groups reflect my live groups.

My daughter does it mostly to simulate shooting on electronic targets in order to prepare for Nationals, JO's, etc... where they have to shoot on electronic targets.

Excellent point about triggering errors. Hadn't thought about that. Might make that a drill/training enhancement at the club.

By the way... mods.... this would be a great topic to pin to the top IMO.

redschietti wrote:bdutton,



I think its a bad idea to use scatt to shoot for score.

I completely agree with redschietti on this. At best, SCATT is still a "simulated" electronic score, so any score shown on SCATT is just that..... "simulated". I understand some shooters may have limited opportunity to train live fire, so for them SCATT is often just used as an electronic target. If it is all you have opportunity to shoot, then certainly use it for that.... HOWEVER.......!

SCATT is not an electronic target. It is a training tool. That is the point of most of the links from the OP of this thread. Score is absolutely the least important item displayed on SCATT, I never even look at it.

As for F cf, somewhere between 5 and 10 seems to give the best results for both air and SB, 50' and 50M. In our training, every shot dry or live is done with SCATT. For me, that range usually shows groups that look close to the size and shape of the live fire group. Note here; it is much more difficult to keep SB groups the same, especially at 50M. I do try to keep the SCATT centered and and set the F cf in the range to keep the SCATT and live groups looking similar. The only reason I even worry about that is it helps with spotting aiming errors. It does no good to shoot really good shots if you don't hold them all in the same place, that is a common problem with shooters. Keeping SCATT groups looking similar to the live fire groups helps to identify the problem. If the coach is watching the SCATT, improperly aimed shots can easily be identified before the shot.

Thanks to the OP for the links, useful information.

When I got the SCATT I set the F coef to 25 for 10m air pistol based on the gunsnot recommendation. But I really had no idea if the SCATT group would resemble reality. So I shot live through my SCATT for 10 shots. The paper bullseye is about 44mm for use at 7.3 m (firing line to target).

Between each shot I walked to the target and back to mark it so I could keep track of the shots which messed up my rhythm some.

The SCATT group looks like it could be a little tighter. But trying other F-coef's between 20 and 30 didn't much improve the dispersion. Regardless the SCATT and live groups are fairly similar.

Bumping this very useful thread.

I'd go so far as to vote for a sticky on this one. It's certainly a question that comes up fairly often, and I agree that it's very useful.

Here's a link to an additional resource on this topic-- a audio discussion between myself (U.S. national rifle team member) and Ohio State University rifle coach, Ryan Tanoue. Just adding to the pile of knowledge :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD1zCMycS40

Recently purchased a Scatt USB unit. I'm practicing O/H NRA High Power. The room Im practicing in a room only allows me a distance of 5.5 meters 'tween the target and my rifle/sensor.

I am having an issue with the bullet impact on display screen (laptop) being a noticeable distance from the "blue line". Digging thru the TargetTalk web-site I came across a posting that I "think" is asking the same question that I have and it seems that its the function of the "F"...... setting

Am I correct in my assumption? If so is there any recommended setting given my practicing environment? I don't know what the curent setting on my Scatt is as hate to fool with settings I have no idea of what I am changing.

Thanks all

Great info!

ptf18,

Yes, the F coefficient setting will change where the projected bullet impact is.

The higher the F/C, the further away the bullet impact is from where the trigger broke.

During live fire with scatt, I have found a setting of around 10 gives me scatt groups that are reasonably close to real world.

Rick. Thank you. I suspect I will be asking more questions as time goes on using my Scatt.

Another newbie question. When I "fire" a shot the "bang/kboom/report" I hear from my laptop that is running my Scat program is much delayed.

I pull the trigger, hear the "hammer" go...click and perhaps a 1/2 second later I hear the "bang/kboom/report" noise coming out of my laptop.

Is there a way to adjust (out) this time delay? I would think that I should hear the "bang/kboom/report" when the hammer goes "home"

Thanks,

Lester

I use SCATT as a coaching tool.
And my "coach" to learn this was Rick.
To all coaches and shooters who want to learn some good stuff ... push to have Rick put on his SCATT Use Clinic at JOs again.

My takes from this thread & my own use:
1) It is not an electronic target. I know a lot use it as such, and it's only OK I think at that. The SCATT score is only tangentially indicative. If I see a "good/great" SCATT score, I say, "well, lets look at what this session tells us"
2) For me it's a tool for me to observe and improve:
A) The shooter's approach to the target ... a narrow repeatable path
B) The shooter's hold, and concentration while in the hold
C) The triggering function of the shooter - you can see snatches, efforts to "push" the hold rather than restarting, and the smoothness of the triggering action.

(Regarding the F-coefficient --- Shhhh - don't tell my shooters -- sometimes I set it a bit high so the shot is "flung" out a bit in order to force them to hold smaller & slower and trigger smoother --- maybe similar in practice to progressive overloading?)

Ideally, I think Rick and others will tell you, and I sure feel this way, is that the effort and concentration of the coach during a SCATT training session is as much mental work for the coach as it is for the shooter.
I'm an advocate of immediate feedback and the shooter cannot watch the SCATT trace & concentrate on the (A,B,C) above at the same time. There is a lot that goes on during even a single shot that the coach can observe, and if necessary, call off a shot is they see something going south (or north, east & west)

All that said ... I do encourage some of my shooters, who must train away from me, send me their SCATT traces, but I feel that so much is lost when observing and commenting after the session. When I pull a shooter off of a shot ... in real time, they can feel, see, understand any error much better.

The downside to this is that it takes A LOT of the coaches effort & time to do this, and that is a very rare & precious commodity.