TargetTalk

I know that it's not the main thing to go on but I guess it shows a quality thing. Has anyone ever done a quality check of match quality air pistol pellets? Taken a sample from various suppliers and just done a comparison based on each quality weight, shape and look? Or should I say variance in weight, look and quality?

I ask because I have just bought a few tins of JSB Match pistol and when I look at them compared to Qiang Yuan match pellets they look terrible. Ok I know I'm not good enough to out shoot any pellet but like the rest of you for a few pounds more I'd like to narrow my odds. So when I look at these two side by side one looks to be a much higher quality but Someone out there must have done a propper study of a few types.

If this has already been done then please point me at the thread and except my apology.

From my personal testing (but not examination), the accuracy of decent pellets was so good that there was no point in testing them. That said, in every test the JSB pellets were the most accurate. I did not test the Qiang Yuan.

For my own use, I use selected lots of RWS Basic. Save your money for beer! (Or send it to the Chinese to attain that warm fuzzy feeling.)

From our experience we have concluded that each pistol likes what it likes. Finding the right combination can often be hit/miss. We try everything, and do not feel 'hemmed in' by the predjudices of others. The answer, is, shoot what works for you and ignore what is going on around you at any given competition.

I don't like H&N pellets because they are soft and I got some smashed pellets on one box... Never seen that happen with RWS R10!

m1963 wrote:From our experience we have concluded that each pistol likes what it likes. Finding the right combination can often be hit/miss. We try everything, and do not feel 'hemmed in' by the predjudices of others. The answer, is, shoot what works for you and ignore what is going on around you at any given competition.

I understand, but that means I buy five tins of pellets to see what shoots best, what I'm trying to do is filter it down. I think by opening a tin and seeing the best looking group of pellets then that's the ones I want to start testing with, does that make sense?

Silly boy, it just doesn't matter.

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=17682

Justin44 wrote:

m1963 wrote:From our experience we have concluded that each pistol likes what it likes. Finding the right combination can often be hit/miss. We try everything, and do not feel 'hemmed in' by the predjudices of others. The answer, is, shoot what works for you and ignore what is going on around you at any given competition.

I understand, but that means I buy five tins of pellets to see what shoots best, what I'm trying to do is filter it down. I think by opening a tin and seeing the best looking group of pellets then that's the ones I want to start testing with, does that make sense?

Not really, go to www.10pt9.com . Larry sells what he calls test packets, which are 50 pellets for $1.??.

Scott Pilkington: "if you are shooting AP, it doesn't really make any difference. The worst pellet/barrel combination will still more than hold than 10 ring."

I did some testing using my LP10E clamped in a vise with many different pellets, 10 shots and they all shot basically one hole. Then I deformed the skirts on several of each brand and to my surprise they all still held the 10 ring, but the groups did open up. I did this because I read about this test somewhere else and I wanted to see the results for myself.

All this managed to do was clear my mind that the brand of pellets doesn't make any real difference in an AP.

- Dave

I'm cheap! I've found I can get cheap pellets that shoot so well that it doesn't matter that the spendy stuff may shoot a LITTLE better (for 3 times the price), and sometimes not nearly as well.

The only way to tell is to test them yourself (if you don't believe my tests).

Who ya gonna believe, me or the death stare of your own lying eyes?

On the "Crosman-Air-Pistol-owners-forum" there is a Pellet Picture Database, hundreds of different pellets photographed. Although not directly related to the topic, interesting nonetheless.

http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-fo ... 637.0.html

dronning wrote:I did some testing using my LP10E clamped in a vise with many different pellets, 10 shots and they all shot basically one hole. Then I deformed the skirts on several of each brand and to my surprise they all still held the 10 ring, but the groups did open up. I did this because I read about this test somewhere else and I wanted to see the results for myself.
- Dave

We occasionally have student shooters load pellets backwards. I just tell them to shoot them rather than try to remove them. They seem to fly pretty straight.

Several years ago I put some pellets in a scanning electron microscope. Interesting stuff, but as has been discussed, what counts is how they shoot, and most shoot pretty well. See http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23255

While yes, even the worst barrel/pellet combo will still hold extremely good groups, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter. The difference between a 9.9 and a 10.0 is minuscule, and the smaller the group you can get, the less likely the "tolerance" of your group will open up and allow that. Pellets and group size are something that can, more or less, be controlled, and anything that can be controlled in a sport with this much precision should always be controlled to take pressure off o the shooter.

Also, it's not like pellets are expensive like their .22 counterparts. If you have enough money to throw down for a $1500+ pistol, it is worth spending the extra money on good pellets. That being said, your pistol could shoot just as well with $8 per tin pellets as it does with $35 per tin pellets, it is different with each gun.

As far as the quality between different manufacturers, that can be hit and miss. To me, RWS R10's and H&N Finale Match are always spectacular. Vogel, on the other hand, has been varying. They used to have amazing pellets, but for some reason, they are awful now. My school has 15+ different lots and almost every one of them has a severe quality drop so bad that I have to throw out about 1 in 5 pellets even in practice. Personally, I would stick to companies like RWS and H&N, they have always performed really well for me, just be sure to find the brand and lot that matches whatever you are shooting.

Rhyno wrote:The difference between a 9.9 and a 10.0 is minuscule, and the smaller the group you can get, the less likely the "tolerance" of your group will open up and allow that. Pellets and group size are something that can, more or less, be controlled, and anything that can be controlled in a sport with this much precision should always be controlled to take pressure off o the shooter.

Whilst I agree in principle with your comment it's worth remembering that the element with the least precision is the shooter.

Even if the group is perfectly centred, a gun or ammunition fault giving a 0.1 difference in score is just as likely to increase the score as it is to reduce it.

If a particular pellet falls 0.1 points below where it (ideally) should then although a shot that should have been a 10.0 at six o'clock would result in a 9.9, a shot that should have been a 9.9 at 12 o'clock would result in 10.0

David Levene wrote:

Rhyno wrote:The difference between a 9.9 and a 10.0 is minuscule, and the smaller the group you can get, the less likely the "tolerance" of your group will open up and allow that. Pellets and group size are something that can, more or less, be controlled, and anything that can be controlled in a sport with this much precision should always be controlled to take pressure off o the shooter.

Whilst I agree in principle with your comment it's worth remembering that the element with the least precision is the shooter.

Even if the group is perfectly centred, a gun or ammunition fault giving a 0.1 difference in score is just as likely to increase the score as it is to reduce it.

If a particular pellet falls 0.1 points below where it (ideally) should then although a shot that should have been a 10.0 at six o'clock would result in a 9.9, a shot that should have been a 9.9 at 12 o'clock would result in 10.0

This is a very good point, but when you work in group size, the overall size of the group and the size of the tolerance that it produces is what counts in over all score.

While yes, a pellet off by .1 could be both a 9.9 or a 10.0, but when looked at as a group, you are compounding your tolerance in an outward (or inward) circle from the base group. When that is the case, the smaller the group (tolerance), the further away you are from the 9 ring (and deeper in the 10 ring).

In the case of a 9.9 being bumped to a 10.0, or having an allowance of some sort to be able to have a buffer zone to shoot a 10, it would still be better to have a smaller group. In the case where a 9.9 could be a 10, it could just as easily be a 9.8. This means that you will probably shoot more "bad" shots, but those shots will be exactly on call, not just a surprise 10. In other words, you have to become a better shooter... ;) When the tolerance is tighter, you will probably shoot more 9's, but those 9's will be deeper and more consistent. The same goes for 10's, though.

Yes, the shooter is the part of the machine with the least precision, and that is precisely why the rest of your equipment should have the least amount of error in it possible. This is simply because any error taken from the equipment will be multiplied by the inconsistency of the shooter. If something can be controlled to make the machine work better and more efficiently, then should be controlled.

I hope this makes some sort of sense. My field of study is Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing and Machine Design, so I spend hours a day pouring over tolerance stacks and trying to figure stuff like this out. I could very easily be mistaken in what I have said, though, so please let me know if I am wrong so that I may learn from my mistakes.

Also, I hope this is somewhat easy to understand, it is hard to explain this without drawing pictures >.<

Rhyno wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Rhyno wrote:The difference between a 9.9 and a 10.0 is minuscule, and the smaller the group you can get, the less likely the "tolerance" of your group will open up and allow that. Pellets and group size are something that can, more or less, be controlled, and anything that can be controlled in a sport with this much precision should always be controlled to take pressure off o the shooter.

Whilst I agree in principle with your comment it's worth remembering that the element with the least precision is the shooter.

Even if the group is perfectly centred, a gun or ammunition fault giving a 0.1 difference in score is just as likely to increase the score as it is to reduce it.

If a particular pellet falls 0.1 points below where it (ideally) should then although a shot that should have been a 10.0 at six o'clock would result in a 9.9, a shot that should have been a 9.9 at 12 o'clock would result in 10.0

This is a very good point, but when you work in group size, the overall size of the group and the size of the tolerance that it produces is what counts in over all score.

While yes, a pellet off by .1 could be both a 9.9 or a 10.0, but when looked at as a group, you are compounding your tolerance in an outward (or inward) circle from the base group. When that is the case, the smaller the group (tolerance), the further away you are from the 9 ring (and deeper in the 10 ring).

I can fully understand what you are saying and would accept it if it wasn't for the fact that the major part of any deviation from the centre will be the inaccuracy of the shooter.

Any pellet deviation at the edge of the "shooter caused" group could enlarge or reduce the total group size, depending on the random direction of the pellet error. If that pellet had actually been fired at the diametrically opposite point in the shooter caused group then the effect on the score would have been reversed.

If the shooter can hold a 10.9 sized group then of course the pellet matters; the score can only get worse.

For a mere mortal however, the random position of the shot release will mean that the effect on the score for that shot by the pellet deviation is just as likely to be positive as negative. For the result of any particular shot, think what would have happened if it had been released on the opposite side of the shooter's hold.

My remarks are obviously based on reasonable quality pellets, not total rubbish ones.

Correct, the shooter is the one causing the most error in the group, but you have to think of the hold as the perfect size group that that person could shoot. When that is the case, if the tested group of the pellets is smaller, the tighter that deviation will be held to the shooters hold, making the tolerance of the group smaller. Of course, this is taking into effect that the shooter is one that can hold a consistent pattern. If the shooter is not able to make consistent groups, or not able to hold in a somewhat consistent pattern, the randomosity of the group won't make as much of a difference (but there will still be a small one).

Also, if we are talking about group size and how good the shooter is, then having visually perfect pellets still plays a roll in the mindset of the shooter. I don't know about you, but I feel so much more confident when I shoot when I have the best equipment that I can and I know that any mistakes that are made are made by me, the shooter, and not by some random error forced upon me by faulty equipment.

Even still, the tighter that the pellet is able to stay on the shooters trace line, the more accurate the shot call will be, and the more confident the shooter will become.

Rhyno wrote:Also, if we are talking about group size and how good the shooter is, then having visually perfect pellets still plays a roll in the mindset of the shooter. I don't know about you, but I feel so much more confident when I shoot when I have the best equipment that I can and I know that any mistakes that are made are made by me, the shooter, and not by some random error forced upon me by faulty equipment.

There we are in total agreement ;-)

David Levene wrote:

Rhyno wrote:Also, if we are talking about group size and how good the shooter is, then having visually perfect pellets still plays a roll in the mindset of the shooter. I don't know about you, but I feel so much more confident when I shoot when I have the best equipment that I can and I know that any mistakes that are made are made by me, the shooter, and not by some random error forced upon me by faulty equipment.

There we are in total agreement ;-)

I'm glad we finally came to an agreement ;)

I would agree with you that the QY pellets when visually inspected under magnification do look very "clean" and uniform compared to many of the other brands. When my daughter was at the top of her game a few years ago in air rifle, we would weigh out each QY pellet, sort them by weight, toss out the ones on the outer edges of the bell curve that was formed, and she would shoot the ones out of the middle of the curve. I don't want to enter into the technical merits of this process, other than to say that for her, it was one less thing she had to worry about. We would do a final test and shoot the ones we processed from a clamped rest and made sure the mm grouping was in the size margin that we wanted. After that she didn't give her pellets a second thought. One less thing to worry about during 2 days of shooting, then shooting in the finals.