TargetTalk

Ive heard you can get TO college shooting a 1903 but to get THROUGH college a higher level rifle is needed....

This isn't for me but for my daughter and a couple of other promising juniors....

At what point (score wise) is a 1903 going to top out before someone is shooting it to it's full potential?

While not CONSISTENTLY hammering the 10 ring of a USA50 target my daughter who is in her first year of smallbore competition CAN turn in some pretty good scores so can others in my program....

They are all still J1 or J2 juniors but where do we say "they can't shoot any better without a 1907 or 1913"?

First of all with a good pairing of gun and ammo you will be able to have a 1903 shoot 10's all day long.
Second, IF the rifle is a good fit there is no reason that a shooter with a 1903 cannot shoot championship scores (hi-570s & 580's) --- BUT the gun must fit the shooter.

I even had a shooter get to the JOs and shoot in the 560's with an Izmash CM-2.
I think the time to move on is as the shooter grows and changes it will be difficult to keep a shooter on a 1903 (or CM-2).

We are limited in time and space in our smallbore program, so for the most part we invite our air rifle shooters to step up after they are shooting in the near 500 range with airguns ... I like how they learn the positions w/o the jacket/pants support (3-P air sporter) ... hard to hide a bad position.
They then shoot the CM-2 as a sporter rifle ... no gear ... and then later put gear on them.
Once it becomes impossible (or they really desire to purchase their own gun) to really fit them well with th CM-2 or 1903 we do encourage them to move on to a better fitting rifle.
My youngest (now a collegiate shooter) shot her first 2 JOs in C-Springs with a 1903. In her 2nd year there, we noticed she just could not get a good standing position, I figured it was time to get her a rifle of her own which she still shoots in college. (a 1913)

You really cannot shoot the great scores required in college with a rifle that does not fit (or cannot be made to fit) the shooter.

My personal favorites for the "moving on" gun are the 1912 if you can snag them, or the newer 1914. Enough adjustments to almost always be able to get a good fit, but not too many that it overwhelms them to play with every adjustment possible.

Great responce! Thanks. LtDave and I were discussing this at last night practice. With all the discussion about the 1903 being a starter gun, I was wondering if their was a point accuracy would be holding back a shooter. You put it into perspective. My son is shooting a 8002 air rifle and a 1903. He really isn't to the point of making many changes from position to position other than raising and lowering the buttstock. Looks like I can hold off on the rifle upgrade for a while yet.

So a '07 in a super stock will suffice vs say a '13 in a precision stock?

When she gets there, if she's still interested I want her to have the absolute best....

Ltdave wrote:So a '07 in a super stock will suffice vs say a '13 in a precision stock?

When she gets there, if she's still interested I want her to have the absolute best....

Leaving aside the stocks for a mo, the only differences between a xx07 barrel and a xx13 barrel are length and weight; the xx13 barrels are 3cm longer and not quite a pound heavier. The length can largely be ignored , but the weight will affect the balance of the rifle, and the shooter's comfort. An adult man shooting prone only will probably pick the heavier xx13 barrel, but a girl or smaller male shooting 3-P may prefer the lighter xx07 barrel as it would be less nose heavy in standing (needing less counter weight at the rear). Most women shooters I see shoot an xx07 barrel, or the equivalent from other manufacturers.

For the stocks, Supermatch stocks come in many guises. The latest 1913 and 1914 stocks have almost the same anatomical adjustment as an aluminium stock like the 1918 Precise, bar the grip. An older 1980s 1813 Supermatch stock is not quite as adjustable, largely in the cheekpiece, but has much more adjustment than the 1903. You tend to see more wood stocks that have been built up in places with putty, or carved about.

Tim S wrote:

Ltdave wrote:So a '07 in a super stock will suffice vs say a '13 in a precision stock?

When she gets there, if she's still interested I want her to have the absolute best....

Leaving aside the stocks for a mo, the only differences between a xx07 barrel and a xx13 barrel are length and weight; the xx13 barrels are 3cm longer and not quite a pound heavier. The length can largely be ignored , but the weight will affect the balance of the rifle, and the shooter's comfort. An adult man shooting prone only will probably pick the heavier xx13 barrel, but a girl or smaller male shooting 3-P may prefer the lighter xx07 barrel as it would be less nose heavy in standing (needing less counter weight at the rear). Most women shooters I see shoot an xx07 barrel, or the equivalent from other manufacturers.

For the stocks, Supermatch stocks come in many guises. The latest 1913 and 1914 stocks have almost the same anatomical adjustment as an aluminium stock like the 1918 Precise, bar the grip. An older 1980s 1813 Supermatch stock is not quite as adjustable, largely in the cheekpiece, but has much more adjustment than the 1903. You tend to see more wood stocks that have been built up in places with putty, or carved about.

FABULOUS! thank you very much. like i said i was pretty confused with all the different numbers and such...

cheers!

Ltdave wrote:So a '07 in a super stock will suffice vs say a '13 in a precision stock?

When she gets there, if she's still interested I want her to have the absolute best....

For a gal, especially a younger one. I don't think you can beat the 1914 stock. I think metal is too heavy. The 1914 is only .25kg heavier than a 1912. I'd even prefer a 1912 over a 1914, but as I said they are harder to find.

Don't be afraid of a used rifle either ... virtually all of my shooters now are shooting 2nd hand rifles.

I think even a lot of adult men would actually benefit from the 07 barrel length/weight. Certainly for 3P, as the trend in standing certainly seems to have brought the balance back closer to the shooter. In the eighties it seemed as if the trend was for a quiet muzzle heavy rifle, to give it more inertia. Now it seems as if balance behind the supporting hand is prefered. Coming to a modern AR in aluminium stock (LG400 Alutec) the balance is much better than I ever recall shooting my 1813. The lighter overall weight is also good, much less tiring. Also having a lighter weight rifle in standard form is nice, as you can always add some weight much more easily than you can remove it.

Alan

Overall, this discussion goes toward what I feel is the right place: 1903 is a great rifle and will carry a new shooter a good distance up the leader board. When you have been with the sport for a while you do just sort of "know" when it is time for a shooter to move up.

First a bit of history: Late 1970s a clubmate and I were at an "away" match. This was American Prone with parts of the match at 50 yards and 50 meters and parts at 100 yards. My friend and I were both shooting Anschutz 1407s there was a local junior, a young lady shooting a Mark 64 (predecessor to today's 1903). At the 50 yard/meter ranges, there was no discernible differences in the scores from any of us. The three of us were matching each other, point for point, X for X. Any of the three of us would be in position to take top junior. When we got out to 100 yards it was a very different story, the young lady with the Mark 64 just could not keep up. Based on her short range scores there was no reason, other than equipment, that this should have happened.

Getting back to modern era: collegiate smallbore competition in the US is fired at 50 ft distances. As has already been noted, with decent target ammo, a 1903 will tear out the 10 dot all day long. My personal experience will back this up. For the newer shooter, the 1903 offers enough adjustment to get the shooter used to the idea of adjusting the rifle to their position and body without so many adjustments that they can get themselves into trouble. (One of the issues with new shooters is they have no memory of what a good position even feels like to know when things are not right.) It is unfortunate however that the 1903 is no longer offered in a "junior" sized stock. There was a "junior" model for a number of years, primarily with a shorter length of pull range that worked well for most shooters of slight build. Nowadays, if you have a smaller shooter and a 1903 you often end up cutting the stock to get the rifle far enough back into the position.

Now the "issue" here is that the 1903 stock is very much the old "Standard Rifle" in terms of dimensions. If you happen to have a "Standard Body" you can go further with a 1903 than if you have a non-standard body. The other issue is the ability of the shooter, some shooters will advance more quickly than others.

So when is it time for an upgrade? While it has been discussed that shooters have taken the 1903s and CM-2s up into the 560s, so long as equipment is available or the financial means are there I would probably not try to carry it so far. Without looking at the shooter and position, if I had to pick a score point, somewhere around 530 it is time to start thinking about it and around 550 make the transition to better rifle. (It is a bit depressing to work all the way into the 560s plus and then have to reset and get a new rifle adjusted).

The next thing I will add here, avoid the temptation to "save some $$$" and start trying to make a 1907 from a 1903. I have seen 1903s with all kinds of stock modifications, fully adjustable butt hook assemblies, reworked cheek piece assemblies, palm rests, bloop tubes and the occasional reworked grip. Basically losing sight of the idea that the 1903 is a starting place, not where you are expected to finish. Some of these "upgrades" have been done with more skill than others. In my eyes, you are creating a white elephant. I would never recommend to a local parent that they purchase such a frankenrifle. While you might save money in the short term, between the time spent doing the modifications and the smaller market when you go to sell you are much better off just going for genuine Match 54 19xx (or similar Walther or FWB).

In the Anschutz line, I am presently shooting a light or standard barrel in a 1914 stock. I give it full marks for being adjustable enough for my 50 something body to find a comfortable and effective prone position (don't really shoot 3P anymore) but not so adjustable I am constantly trying to find a proper setup. Plus as a veteran of decades of wooden stocks, it just has a better "feel" than trying to shoot 10s while hugging a piece of aluminum. I give it full marks as a great rifle for any advancing junior.

I have been rambling a bit here, hope I have added something to the conversation.

'Dude

justadude wrote:I have been rambling a bit here, hope I have added something to the conversation.

'Dude

Your insight is always spot on.

So jh',

Am I spot on that I am rambling or adding? : )

Thanks,
'Dude

Funny ... + to the adding part.
Good info

Thanks again for the great info. My son is in the 530-550 range in smallbore and 550-560 range for air rifle. I'm going to try and upgrade this summer before he attends smallbore camp to get some professional help with setting it up for his positions.

Oh, absolutely get him on an upgraded action ... whateve manufacturer.
Now is the time, and in the next few months, to watch the Buy & Sell area of this board.

Many collegiate shooters may be parting ways with their rifles and you can have a decent variety to consider.