TargetTalk

I know this topic has been discussed many times.

On Wednesday we had a team competition. Both teams , the guest and the host, shot extremely bad. All together 8 people who shot around 335-340/400. Most of then regularly shoot over 370.

I was the most inexperienced shooter and I shot 334. I had such a bad score only on my first day with a pistol whist now I an usually over 360/400 and never below 356/400.

Light conditions in the guest club were really unusual for me. All lights behind the shooters had been blinded with a shield, so that we were in semi darkness. I have no doubt we shot so badly for this reason.

Does anybody know if it is allowed, and if so, if it is effective, to wear a light on a head band to project light towards the sights?

I'm not an ISSF rule expert, but I can't see any prohibition to such as long as it doesn't interfere with neighbor shooters when you move your head around. Alternately, I know of a Free Pistol shooter that has a miniature light mounted behind his front sight. When I brought that up for dicussion here, no one found anything wrong with it.

A few years ago, we used to have annual "State Games" and a venue where I was scheduled to fire Rapid Fire, had to move their firing points rearward by a couple of feet to adjust the distance to the placement of the target carriers. This moved us out from under the firing point lights, placing them in front of the gun and leaving the sights in relative darkness. My results were quite poor. The next time the games were "played" at that venue, I mounted fiber optics in my sights and it really helped.

If you are shooting on a range that is so far from ISSF standards, and you were not shooting an ISSF match (unless all of the competitors were female), then you have to wonder which, if any, of the other rules to ignore.

Whilst it would be a Jury decision, for a match run under ISSF conditions I would certainly be voting to apply rule 6.7.2:-

Athletes must use only equipment and apparel that complies with ISSF Rules. Any gun, device, equipment, accessory or other item that may give an athlete an unfair advantage over others and that is not specifically mentioned in these Rules, or that is contrary to the spirit of these Rules, is prohibited.

As light levels are covered by the rules, attempting to increase them for a single shooter would IMHO be trying to gain an unfair advantage.

Thanks!

Hi David Levene,

Thank you for posting a rule. The last time I brought the items above up, no one found anything wrong with either. At the time, I questioned the use of a miniature light, but for my optic fiber sights, I was told that optic fiber was allowed in sights, as some guns come with it when purchased.

I must also point out that conditions in which we were firing, were not up to ISSF standards, and they were, obviously, not ISSF sanctioned.

Ed Hall wrote:At the time, I questioned the use of a miniature light, but for my optic fiber sights, I was told that optic fiber was allowed in sights, as some guns come with it when purchased.

I can vaguely remember a question about inserting a piece of fibre through the front sight to give a "luminous" dot . I can see no problem with that.

I'm afraid I can't remember a question about a miniature light.

David Levene wrote:I can vaguely remember a question about inserting a piece of fibre through the front sight to give a "luminous" dot . I can see no problem with that.

I disagree. Even if the range was not up to ISSF light specs, this is covered by the rule:

8.4.1.3 Sights
a) Only open sights are allowed. Optical, mirror, telescope,
laser-beam, electronically projected dot sights etc., are
prohibited;

If fiber optics are not banned by the "Optical" part of the rule they will surely be under the "ect."
Not to mention the advantage it would give a shooter over the others (rule 6.7.2 you mentioned), especially in lower lights conditions.

rmca wrote: I disagree. Even if the range was not up to ISSF light specs, this is covered by the rule:

8.4.1.3 Sights
a) Only open sights are allowed. Optical, mirror, telescope,
laser-beam, electronically projected dot sights etc., are
prohibited;

If fiber optics are not banned by the "Optical" part of the rule they will surely be under the "ect."
Not to mention the advantage it would give a shooter over the others (rule 6.7.2 you mentioned), especially in lower lights conditions.

We are not talking about something that you look through. It would have exactly the same effect as putting a dot on the front sight with fluorescent paint. It is still an open sight.

Hi David Levene,

I found the previous posting and you were the only person to reply to my query, way back in the beggining of '04:

An Observation & Question

I also made mention of it later (maybe in '08), but it was more of an aside and no one took notice.

I agree with you that fiber "optics" is not the "Optical" sights referenced in 8.4.1.3. However, I will also note that although I agree with you about their use for ISSF/USAS, etc., there is at least one entity in the US that currently** disallows any "light gathering device," which means fiber optics, for one of their disciplines. For those "inquiring minds," this is for the Distinguished Pistol Program governed by the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

**I stated "currently" because there is a major rewrite of those rules underway and I expect that specific rule to be removed.

TheRider, was that competition in Germany?

For ISSF-competitions there are of course certain regulations concerning the light conditions, height of the target etc. As far as I remember the light should be around 800 lux at the target, but with a similar lux-rate for the rest of the room. So not from the deep dark into the light... but that doesn't count for average club ranges. The officials, which check the ranges regularly, will surely recommend to install better lights, but contrary to safety measures they cannot force the club to invest here.

I know that especially in Germany there are a lot of indoor ranges like you describe. Over the years you see them all and have to cope with it - if the light conditions are so bad, that both teams, host and guest, suffer from the light conditions, they should check if they can move to another range with better lights (although I wonder why the host would shoot ander that conditions in the regular training or other matches there and didn't care yet about it...).

If there is no other chance than to shoot the competition there, you have to adopt to those bad conditions. Try to look into the brighter areas as much as possible, also between the shots. Every look into the dark opens your iris, and you will loose depth of focus, and your eyes become tired.

David Levene wrote:

rmca wrote: I disagree. Even if the range was not up to ISSF light specs, this is covered by the rule:

8.4.1.3 Sights
a) Only open sights are allowed. Optical, mirror, telescope,
laser-beam, electronically projected dot sights etc., are
prohibited;

If fiber optics are not banned by the "Optical" part of the rule they will surely be under the "ect."
Not to mention the advantage it would give a shooter over the others (rule 6.7.2 you mentioned), especially in lower lights conditions.

We are not talking about something that you look through. It would have exactly the same effect as putting a dot on the front sight with fluorescent paint. It is still an open sight.

I understand your point on fiber optics but do not agree with it. IMHO it is a form of optical sight, as light passes through it.
That is not the case with fluorescent paint, although I don't think it complies either with the spirit on which the rule was written.

Will we agree to disagree on this?

Thanks Ulrich.

That was a DSB Bezirksoberliga in München. Do they have to comply with ISSF regulations?

I have actually just checked.
Rule 6.4.14
Target: min 1500lux , recommended minimum 1800 lux
General: min 300 lux, recommended 500 lux
No way that was respecting these parameters. It was like a bedside table illumination.


I was also surprised by the target height. Usually my arm is over 90 degrees from vertical to hit a target at 1.4meters.
In that range it was less than 90 degrees...or at least this was my feeling (and also of my team mates).

When I enquired about the height I was told that by regulatins it has to be about 1.4, with lots of tolerance. That sounded strange to me as I had previously checked. Now I checked again it's
Rule 6.4.6.1, despite the typo error (distance 1m) in the English version
1.4m +- 0.05m
Again far from ISSF standards

rmca wrote:
Will we agree to disagree on this?

I agree, we certainly disagree on this :-)

Well, not really over 90 degrees...but about horizontal as I am over 1.7m tall ( or small)

Ed Hall wrote:... there is at least one entity in the US that currently** disallows any "light gathering device," which means fiber optics, for one of their disciplines. For those "inquiring minds," this is for the Distinguished Pistol Program governed by the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
...

And the relationship to ISSF is ?

therider wrote:That was a DSB Bezirksoberliga in München. Do they have to comply with ISSF regulations?

No, they only have to comply with the "Schiessstand-Richtlinien des DSB", as long as they don't invite to ISSF-competitions. But these are in these aspects identical: http://www.dsb.de/media/PDF/Recht/Waffe ... en2012.pdf (1,40 m +- 0,05 m)

Thanks Ulrich,
as far as I can read, the rules are really the same also for lux.
That means that the competition took place in a club which does not respect the DSB standards.

Had they been correct I would have shot for sure 400/400!
:-)

Sorry, I might be wrong:

Sportordnung des DSB (Nummer 0.3.7.3, Stand 01/2011), sieht vor, dass bei geschlossenen 10-m-Schießständen
folgende Beleuchtungsstärken einzuhalten sind:
Schützenstand u. Schießbahn mind. 150 Ix (indirekt)
Scheibe mind. 1 000 Ix

If I understand correctly for closed shooting ranges, 150lux indirect light is enough at the stand.

I find this ridiculuously low!

I never understood why the DSB is here different from the ISSF. ever seen a soccer game on a different sized field with 15 players per team? but who cares about shooting when even steyr is releasing a special edition with the german wins of the soccer(!) worldcup...

Spencer wrote:

Ed Hall wrote:... there is at least one entity in the US that currently** disallows any "light gathering device," which means fiber optics, for one of their disciplines. For those "inquiring minds," this is for the Distinguished Pistol Program governed by the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
...

And the relationship to ISSF is ?

None! I added it because it showed an official shooting entity that supported rmca's position.