TargetTalk

It seems that to make world cup shooting a more exciting sport for spectators they are encoraged to make
noise and it seems that in the finals this is where most of it gets made. Looks like it peaks with
the last 4 remaining shooters in an event. If you look at the junior mens prone recently
shot in Granada (youtube issfchannel) from the very start some idiot blows on a horn of some
sort and does not stop!

Have a look and between 17:30 - 18:30 into the video (if you don't want to watch
the whole thing) and see if you get as irritated as I was. Some coach must have objected
cost that horn stopped polluting the "atmosphere" (while the shots were being fired) later in the match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIpN3T ... 1yMp6x_C0Q

Clapping and cheering is one thing (preferably after a series or single shot) but making noise with something that belongs in
a sports stadium with 20+ players on a field is frikkin nuts! It takes a lot of time and sacrifice to get
to a world cup final and this may be useful teaching snipers how to stay focused when pulling off
a difficult shot but like top competition chess, top competition shooting needs a lot of concentration
and I cannot suppress the feeling I want to punch (repeatedly and with gusto) the inconsiderate pratt doing that.
Unless it was a she... I really feel spectator noise degrades the feel of a shooting competition.
Just go beserk, wet your pants, fall on the floor and kick and scream between shots but preferably
after the very last one!

Sadly the powers that be in ISSF have decided, that in an effort to placate the IOC and keep shooting in the Olympic program, it must no longer be a precision sport. The new rules in finals events especially have made a joke of the sport.

Nothing wrong with loud cheering. As for athletes, it probably will not bother them since they wear ear protection and hence cannot hear that much. Chances are the audience will be told to stay quiet when it is the athlete's time to shoot.

Svensta -
You've never seen a Bundesliga match have you? Commentary, crowd participation, with the added yellow triangle of doom that tells you whether you are ahead or behind the shooter you are competing against. Talk about that for a mind-f*ck.
And that's why Germany produces so many world class shooters - because they can deal with any sort of range conditions and maintain focus through it all.

That said, I despise airhorns with a passion. And consider them to be inappropriate in broadly every circumstance. Some cretin has been taking one to the BBC's Last Night of the Proms for years and this is inexplicably tolerated. Football matches, demonstrations, still no. They're the bugle of the pleb. Ugly and discordant, anyone using an airhorn outside of a maritime or genuine signalling/distress use-case should have said air horn placed against whichever ear they like most and be forced to listen to it at point blank range until it runs out of air. Somewhat like the tradition of chopping a thief's hand off - anyone sullying the world with an airhorn for no good reason should lose the use of their ear.

gwsb wrote:Sadly the powers that be in ISSF have decided, that in an effort to placate the IOC and keep shooting in the Olympic program, it must no longer be a precision sport. The new rules in finals events especially have made a joke of the sport.

Could not disagree more. I think the finals are a big improvement.

As for the noise when I first heard it I was a bit alarmed but now I don't really see it as a problem. Just one of those things you get used to.

When we were at finals at the USA Shooting Nationals in Ft. Benning this June, the crowd was encouraged to cheer even while they shot. So people were cheering and shouting during the entire thing. People were even stomping their feet on the bleachers during a shoot off. I personally didn't cheer while they shot but in between series', I would cheer on friends if they were doing well. I like the new finals but I do think the noise should be only between series' in the finals.

I thought that IOC had outlawed the "vuvzule" (???) horns at the Olympics.
They should then ban them at WCs too.

Cheering, Stomping, Clapping, Urging on your shooter is fine in my book. Makes the finals more fun for spectators ... forces focus on the competitors.

Apart from the fact that a gas-operated horn really should not be allowed in a final, that huge noise is something a final shooter has to get used to. Like written already, just watch the german Bundesliga - which is very popular for top-shooters from all over the world (including overseas), you won't find many german shooters in some teams.

It's like with everything a question of the dose: watching some finals at the WCH when the crowd clapped with increasing rhythm, this fits much better for a pole jumper or other track & fields jump events, during their inrun. It's quite disturbing if you are not able to shut this off for you mentally. And assuming that some spectators try to encourage their own team members standing in the final, they should think again, if it's really positive for them.

We could discuss the pro's and con's of the new final format for days - it's decided and we have to live with it (the few, which really participate in Finals) at least until the nex Olympics are finished. But one thing that seems to be sure already is: The new formats are quite a different shooting diszipline, on invitation for the top 6 or 8 shooters from the qualification relay. And "the media" won't follow these events, even when they are shorter than the qualification: if we're lucky, we'll see the last four or three shooters in the Final in 1:30" in TV, nothing longer...

Anybody who has missed the (excellent) inhouse TV coverage from the ISSF in the Finals - the ISSF has all of them in their YouTube-Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcFugr ... 1yMp6x_C0Q

As I wrote in the pistol forum, I absolutely despise the noise during the shots in a final.

I would like to see the audience behave like they were in a tennis or golf match, where during the point or shot they stay absolutely quiet. Then when it's over they can make all the noise they want.
That's the way to encourage AND RESPECT those in play!

Noise during a shot only diminishes and lowers the respectability of the sport in my view.

You are doing a serious disservice to your shooters if you keep it nice and quiet while they shoot. At the London Olympics, there was all kinds of noise at all times during the matches. Typically at the Olympics you have fans in the stands that don't know the proper etiquette and they make a racket. During the prone match in London, every time Jon Hammond (British team) shot a 10, they cheered, and loud. I can guarantee he had never had to deal with that before.

I laugh when at shooting matches in the US where you are told to "shush" when speaking to someone behind the firing line. What a joke. The Olympics are the loudest match I've ever shot, and that is what most of us are preparing for. Get used to it now or you'll likely never get to hear it later.

Eric U

Eric U wrote:I laugh when at shooting matches in the US where you are told to "shush" when speaking to someone behind the firing line. What a joke. The Olympics are the loudest match I've ever shot, and that is what most of us are preparing for. Get used to it now or you'll likely never get to hear it later.

I agree 100%.

Noise is nothing new. Even when I was competing internationally (30 years ago) the only ranges that were quiet were the ones without spectators. Shooting next to Ragnar Skanaker, when his supporters cheered every 10, soon taught you to block out everything.

A sudden accidental noise on a quiet range is more of a disturbance than a noisy range.

[/quote]A sudden accidental noise on a quiet range is more of a disturbance than a noisy range.[/quote]

Well said that man!!!

David Levene wrote:

Eric U wrote:I laugh when at shooting matches in the US where you are told to "shush" when speaking to someone behind the firing line. What a joke. The Olympics are the loudest match I've ever shot, and that is what most of us are preparing for. Get used to it now or you'll likely never get to hear it later.

I agree 100%.

Noise is nothing new. Even when I was competing internationally (30 years ago) the only ranges that were quiet were the ones without spectators. Shooting next to Ragnar Skanaker, when his supporters cheered every 10, soon taught you to block out everything.

A sudden accidental noise on a quiet range is more of a disturbance than a noisy range.

I didn´t say that I don't train with noise nor that I can't get used to it.
But I would like to see a behaviour more like in tennis, where you can make all the noise you want but between the points... not during!

Anyway, just my opinion.

This discussion reminds me of my dad saying he could never understand why Golf needed absolute silence to hit a ball that was just sitting there not moving. While Baseball has 10s of thousands yelling at the batter including the Catcher right behind him all the while trying to hit a ball going 90+ or curving and dropping etc never in the same place twice. LOL

In high power silhouette you are standing between two other shooters unless you are on the ends. Try concentrating while a .308 is going off on one side and a .260 is going off on the other side, give that a try lol. Hell just the concussion of the shot next to you is enough to push you off target if you happen to be breaking your shot right after they do. You have to get into a sequence between the other two in timing your shot. But since you only have 2:30 for 5 shots you can't hold out forever. Oh and then you also have all the chatter from the spotters talking to them as well plus your own spotter yacking in your ear. That took me a long time to get used to!

As for noise at WC events etc Lones Wigger used to shoot silhouette with us and I heard he once used to order enlisted men to the firing range. He was a Colonel in the Army and shot on the Marksmanship Team. Anyway he would have them come out and he'd tell them that this would be their one chance to tell an Officer anything they wanted and he meant anything! So he would get to shooting while these guys would take turns saying anything they could to try and distract or get a rise out of him while he shot. Try shooting while being heckled lol. Seems to have worked for him.


Bo

I'm relatively new to this sport, but after watching a few finals I have thought to myself that cheering whilst the final shots in a competition are being made can only put the contestants off, and from what I've seen, it sometimes does. In some other sports, where concentration is not key to performance, and adrenaline is a good thing, I think that cheering does motivate atheletes to perform better, but in shooting, it's just an off putting distraction. You wouldn't have this sort of behaviour from a crowd watching Snooker. I suppose that some shooters can cope with the distraction better than others, but personally, I'd rather judge a shooter by their ability to shoot in normal conditions, than under the additional stress of a noisy crowd. Personally, I find cheering when a crucial shot is about to be taken annoying, and makes me wonder if the portion of the crowd who are cheering are deliberately trying to put off the person who they are supporting's opponent.

Wynne G Oldman wrote:... and makes me wonder if the portion of the crowd who are cheering are deliberately trying to put off the person who they are supporting's opponent.

End to the wonder ---> Yes.

The new final is a totally different event, in a totally different environment. That's the way ISSF wanted it ... it's all about TV these days and ...... DRAMA.

Gotta live with it ... and be able to still function.

Not that I watch a lot of golf... It is always quiet enough to hear the proverbial "pin drop" when they show those highlights of the final "winning" or losing put. Seems that golf has a pretty sizable TV audience, at least compared to rifle shooting anyway! Maybe it would boost their ratings if everyone in the gallery would yell and scream and make a bunch of noise while the players were trying to make that put. If it's good for rifle, why not golf? Answer. It's not good for either. Both are games of high level concentration. The audience making noise degrades the game and does nothing for the TV viewers in either case. IMHO

All these changes, noise, finals, etc.... have been made to rifle shooting for the mythical TV ratings. All this has been done for the 30 min of air time at 3am in the morning once every 4 years. Makes perfect sense.

Wynne G Oldman wrote:I'm relatively new to this sport, but after watching a few finals I have thought to myself that cheering whilst the final shots in a competition are being made can only put the contestants off, and from what I've seen, it sometimes does. In some other sports, where concentration is not key to performance, and adrenaline is a good thing, I think that cheering does motivate atheletes to perform better, but in shooting, it's just an off putting distraction.

At London 2012, I noticed at least one rifle shooter, when faced with a couple of ropey shots would start slotting in tens again after cheers of encouragement from their supporters.
Maybe they'd stopped and taken stock of their position, but it seemed to me they were feeding off the crowd and channeling that into something positive - "I'll show them how good I am".
You don't get to control when your brain decides you'd benefit from a big dump of adrenaline into your system, but you can predict that hearing "Ladies and Gentleman. Welcome to the xxx Final at the 2016 Rio de Janeiro Olympics. On lane one we have... you." is the sort of time when that might happen, and you'd better have something useful to do with that adrenaline when it arrives.

rmarsh wrote:Not that I watch a lot of golf... It is always quiet enough to hear the proverbial "pin drop" when they show those highlights of the final "winning" or losing put. Seems that golf has a pretty sizable TV audience, at least compared to rifle shooting anyway! Maybe it would boost their ratings if everyone in the gallery would yell and scream and make a bunch of noise while the players were trying to make that put. If it's good for rifle, why not golf? Answer. It's not good for either. Both are games of high level concentration.

I think comparisons to Golf drastically oversimplify matters.

Golf is a slow paced sport, in which players take a shot once every 10 minutes at most (apart from on the green when putting) - shot, walk, shot, walk. Moreover they take turns at taking shots, unlike shooters who are all taking their shots at the same time.

It is thus very much easier to tell the story and follow the match one stroke at a time.
Moreover, you can see the ball as it flies and follow it's trajectory, rather than simply watching a monitor as dots appear on a screen. A very different viewing experience to rifle shooting.


Also, as Eric says, a cough on a silent range sounds like a cannon going off, whereas a shout in a noisy range disappears into the background hubbub.
And there will ALWAYS be noise. Press moving around, officials moving about, etc. If a camera operator drops something when they're doing their job, that will clatter off the (usually concrete) floor. Under normal circumstances, a lens cap won't make a whole lot of noise but if you can hear a pin drop, then a lens cap might as well be a tray of glassware crashing to the ground. A general background hubbub is far less distracting than absolute silence broken by ringing reverberations.

Have we not all thought "what a prima donna" at one stage or another when a golfer has claimed disruption because someone happened to sneeze at just the wrong moment? For pities sake, you need a modicum of resiliance!

That said, I reiterate my distaste as the use of airhorns, both as a spectator and a competitor.

It's a new game, new rules and it makes for a much more spectator, and TV, friendly event. There's no reason shooting has to be quiet, as a shooter on the line you soon get used to it. As David said its much worse being on a quiet range when you get a sudden noise, if its noisy all the time, you don't notice it.

Rob.

I have an experience for you.

I am going to take you to an place where you are going to stand/lie next to a whole lot of others.

You will then take your rifle/Pistol (which is noisier than a rifle BTW) and shoot 60+ shots at a wee back hole.

While you are doing this 50+ others are going to make such a noise that in a very short space of time you would be deaf if they were all next to your left and right ear.

That makes it 60+ multiplied by 50+ = something like 3000+ loud bangs.

Carry on.

And you did. We all do it every time we are in any range with others.

What's a few (not so loud) yeehaas between friends going to do when you think about it.

Does not the problem lie within......?