TargetTalk

How common are serious back problems among the highest levels of 3P smallbore and air rifle shooters that have shot for many years? Which Olympic medalists in these events have had to have back surgery? These questions come from the recently publicized problems of Jamie Gray and Sarah Scherer.

Great question ... my answer "I don't really know", but here is an observation:

I think that (again IMO) the CMP Sporter-->Precision migration program has helped this in one primary way. In starting shooters out in the sporter position the shooters actual physical technique is more readily seen and corrected. When you start shooters (especially at an early age -- 10-13yrs) directly into the Precision/International style you must be very, very watchful as the shooting attire can hide many bad habits and errors in position.

In any case building core strength is necessary, again especially for the younger shooters. Too often the importance of this is overlooked.

It would be interesting to see some long term study but it seems that there is more than just coincidental tendency in not small bore but small/air involving offhand. Which if you think about it, long hours of training in standing leads to compression of the lower back which can develop long term effects. As stated below it is prudent to be very sensitive in young shooters during physical development ages to make sure everything is done to protect them, and core exercise work even with some yoga stretching is helpful. I would also add making sure the correct balance of rifle weight to age appropriate is important so they dont over exert the effort to handle heavy rifles putting more strain in the lower back. Meaning, a 10 year old probably shouldn't handle a 12lb lg400 when the 7.5lb lg300 junior is more appropriate for weight/development ratio. This interweaves with starting in sportier for position development.

First, some observations on world class athletes in general: Name a sport where an athlete can be among the best in the world and not have stress injuries.... Golf, Football? Dancing? Cycling? Wrestling? Gymnastics? Track? Ice skating? Skiing? Do I need to go on? Maybe curling? Maybe prone only shooting?

My point here is not to minimize or make light of the injuries shooters suffer from. The point is.... In order to become the best at any sport, countless hours of repetitive training is required. The human body isn't made to do that. Any athlete who truly aspires to be the best at any sport will eventually suffer the physical consequences. Certainly there are things that can and should be done to minimize the injuries. As Joel points out, most shooters do not put the priority they should on physical training. Parents and shooters need to focus on core physical training, and those who have injuries need to hang up their guns before those injuries become permanently debilitating.

It is sad for fans and admirers to see those like Jamie, Sarah and others leave the sport due to injury. I'm sure it's hard for them to give it up as well. But.... it's the price of being a world class athlete. The body can only take it for so long.

Paul I don't think it is the shooting standing that is the problem. It is a combination of the heavy bags and gun cases that we carry and the crappy bunks at Camp Perry that have ruined our backs.

The girls standing position has evolved from feet at shoulder width apart & vertical stance to wide feet apart & left hip thrust forward. This is my opinion of what I have observed in recent times. Perhaps also the elite shooters rack up more hours than previously is another factor. I cannot see how this position development helps the long term health of the back. Lead pollution & back problems are the elephant in the room I believe for our sport. It would make interesting reading if a scientific study was made on shooting positions & likely effects on long term health of the body.

I would say an estimate is 80% of very serious shooters have back problems sometime during their shooting careers. Mine has been mild and restricted to soreness and discomfort, but some have progressed to the point of career ending. The most serious shooters train their positions for many hours per day, and over years of doing this it wrecks the back. I am unsure of how many Olympic Medalists have had back surgery because of this.
Matt

This is sligthly of topic because I'm not in the highest level. I took the decision to end my 50m 3P and 10m air rifle career this weekend. I have back problems from before I started shooting and my back just don't tolerate the amount of training that is needed if the goal is to be at the highest level and I'm a person who either go in 100% or don't do it at all. I don't want to take the risk of make my back problems worse than they are.

I have done much core training and used a normal position so the problem isn't to be found in that part either.

I think you got to have the chance of damage to your body in mind if you want to be at the highest level in any sport.

To look at my situation positively, I can go in and devote 100% to my prone shooting.

gwsb wrote:Paul I don't think it is the shooting standing that is the problem. It is a combination of the heavy bags and gun cases that we carry and the crappy bunks at Camp Perry that have ruined our backs.

Or for the 17 years I was in Special Forces(Green Beret) I carried a heavy ruck. Now to shoot 3P is very painful. Arthritis all in my right side of body and five places on my spine. Shooting is now done from a comfy chair and elevated bench.

Let me ask this question.

Do any of these shooters incorporate some sort of strength training in their shooting regime?
I do lots of stretching along with light calisthenics before I shoot.
After I am done I do more stretches so that I am limber.
Sit ups also help and they don't need to be power sit ups. Just enough that you are moving those core support muscles.

Carrying heavy equipment should be alleviated with plastic bins with extendable handles and wheels.
They are rather cheap from HomeDepot or any home improvements store.

Unless of course money is no object and you want to purchase a range cart from Creedmore.

Ninja now almost every serious smallbore shooter has some sort of physical training built into their practice.

I do physical training 3 times a week. I do 6 exercises for the core, 1 for the legs, then go out running and when I come back from that I do 4 exercises for the upper body.

Maybe my back would tolerate standing shooting if I didn't have back problems from before.

Hi Johan_85,

could you share the exercises you do for the core?

Kindest regards,

N

I do not have a background in medical sciences so there is probably something I do not understand here.

Will doing "core" or other exercises that will strengthen the core and back muscles actually help with back issues? Consider... In the standing position, the lower back is bent, (some shooters more than others) in usually two major directions, and the hip is thrust upward. THEN the shooter RELAXES and allows their weight to settle on the bone structure built by getting this position. My daughter is quite methodical about this part of her shot process. Get into position, then breathe, relax and settle..... allowing the back settle into the pelvic area and lock. So, since the position requires the shooter relax muscle tension, does building up those surrounding muscles really do much to eliminate the stress on the back joints?

It would seem to me the answer would be "no" or very minimal. When the back muscles are relaxed to the point most high level shooters do, there is very little muscle support remaining. The back disks and cartilage will bear the brunt of the weight.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying there is no place for physical exercise in the training program of a shooter. Daily physical training is part of her program and much is directed specifically at "core" and lower back areas. I'm just asking if it will really do much to minimize the types of back injuries that have become common with shooters. Maybe someone with a background in physical therapy can explain it for me.

rmarsh said: "In the standing position, the lower back is bent, (some shooters more than others) in usually two major directions, and the hip is thrust upward. THEN the shooter RELAXES and allows their weight to settle on the bone structure built by getting this position."

With this old method of shooting standing, pressure on the back is still extreme. We changed our juniors to a more upright position, based on balance from modern dance. Hips remain level, with very little (if any) back bend, while the upper torso is shifted away from the target (keeping shoulders level). This brings the rifle center of gravity back about over the supporting hand, while the upper supporting arm rests on the rib cage.

I had back problems for years, and have used core exercises (US Army 4 for the Core) and the new position to be able to continue shooting. My scores have suffered only because of eyesight and the disposal of the artificial support (shooting jacket and pants), while my back problems are a shadow of past problems. I also lightened my rifle (older 1413) with a807 barrel and some stock modifications (as I think most shooters tend to shoot more rifle than their body can handle , thus the use of the artificial support from modern jackets and shooting pants).

Have had several top 20 national junior shooters using this stance.

nemo wrote:Hi Johan_85,

could you share the exercises you do for the core?

Kindest regards,

N

I do US Army 4 for the core http://www.armyprt.com/special_conditio ... core.shtml and then I do plank with leg raises http://trendotraning.se/2012/02/13/veck ... -rumplyft/ and finally the ordinary plank http://30dayfitnesschallenges.com/how-to-do-a-plank/

I just do one set of each and I do each exercise for 1 minute and 20 seconds.

Hi Johan_85,

thank you for the reply,

Kindest regards,

N

Back in the old days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I shot standing 3-5 times a week we would bend and twist our backs in the extreme. Many shooters also hung weights on the end of the stock in the hope that the additional weight would dampen the sway of the rifle. That was before the advent of the stiff coats now used. Then the pants were thin canvas with pads attached and the coats were thin leather lined with limp denim. A shooter got NO support from either pants or coat .

With the introduction of the new equipment it is possible to shoot standing in a much more erect position. It also makes it possible to stand more erect and place the rifle's center of weight over the chest and not at the front.

rmarsh wrote: Consider... In the standing position, the lower back is bent, (some shooters more than others) in usually two major directions, and the hip is thrust upward. THEN the shooter RELAXES and allows their weight to settle on the bone structure built by getting this position.

I agree with Mr. Marsh on this. That is how I shoot and it's not my back muscles that are getting messed up, it is definitely the spine. I shoot with my forward hip out, and that is causing it to get pretty messed up as well. As long as you're relaxing, you're not doing damage to your muscles, it's your joints that are taking the toll. I work out quite a bit, and I don't think there are really any exercises that will significantly help these issues.

Pat McCoy wrote: We changed our juniors to a more upright position, based on balance from modern dance. Hips remain level, with very little (if any) back bend, while the upper torso is shifted away from the target (keeping shoulders level). This brings the rifle center of gravity back about over the supporting hand, while the upper supporting arm rests on the rib cage.

You're saying that they are "resting" their arms on their rib cages? It doesn't seem that it would be possible to relax your arm if you are trying to use your rib cage as a base for you arm. Wouldn't you be using muscle to press the arm into the rib cage?

dahigg wrote:You're saying that they are "resting" their arms on their rib cages? It doesn't seem that it would be possible to relax your arm if you are trying to use your rib cage as a base for you arm. Wouldn't you be using muscle to press the arm into the rib cage?

David ... when (mostly male) shooters use this position the support arm is not at your side as you would if you were resting your elbow on your hip, but slightly (very slightly) across your ribcage so that the weight of the rifle presses it down into the ribs which offer the support. This can also lead to a slightly more open position to let the gun clear the left side of the chest (for a rh shooter). I've even shifted some of our more "well proportioned" female shooters in this way to allow that clearance necessary by the rules.

Put your arm down by your side in the support position as if you were going to try and rest the elbow on your hip, then lift the elbow and move it to a point about half way between your hip & belly button. and rest it down again. See how the arm rests on the ribs now? Not as good as elbow-on-the-hip, but when the rifle rests, the arm is pressed against the ribs.

Make sure if you are going to try this you check with your coaches ...