TargetTalk

I’ve been happy shooting my IZH 46 (not the M version, too nose heavy) for about a year now, and set my PR’s of 499/600 and 89/100 for a single target with it using Vogel pellets. But lately I had been wondering if having a lighter, more adjustable gun I didn’t have to expend any effort cocking would be a benefit. Enter the Steyr LP10M. I was considering other guns (Morini Compact, LP2) because LP10’s were always out of my price range, even used, and weighed too much. Then a used one popped up on Target Talk for a price I could afford (thank you Vincent). It really wasn’t on my list, but there are so many people who believe this is the be all, end all gun, that I decided to see what all of the fuss was about.

I’ve had it about a month now, and have to say that the biggest reason for getting an LP10 is because of its adjustability. The grip adjustment alone puts it head and shoulders above any other gun, except for the recent Walter LG400 and Pardini K12, unless I am mistaken about them. Forget about the trigger and accuracy, etc, etc. You know that is going to be world class, but even my IZH can shoot 10’s all day long if I could. This review is for normal folks who keep wondering if they should upgrade and why. Again, being able to adjust that grip to perfectly fit your anatomy and style is probably the single biggest reason to own this gun. I’m talking about the angles and yaw, not how it fits your palm. I’ve also played with it enough to have changed my opinion about the weight problem. I’ve pulled off the shroud, installed a Nygord compensator (thanks again Vincent), added a 25 gram barrel weight for an LP2, and put on a short air cylinder, for a total reduced weight of 900 grams exactly, ready to shoot. I set a Summer goal to break my PR’s, and only a month in with the LP10, I’ve shot new records of 510/600 and 90/100. But, I’ve also added a shot plan to my shooting which I strickly adhere to every shot, so it’s entirely possible that I could have set the same scores with my IZH. However, the LP10 has eliminated the cocking effort completely, and is so much easier to hold on target because of the lighter weight. These things cannot be replicated by an IZH, nor can it be adjusted to fit me without a lot of trouble, I have to adapt to it for better or worse. I absolutely thought I’d play with the LP10 for a week or so then sell it, but it has become everything I could possibly want in an air pistol. The only possible reason for my shooting poorly now is me, not the equipment. You still can’t buy points, but you CAN make it easier on yourself to get them.

Best Regards,
Scrench

You still can’t buy points, but you CAN make it easier on yourself to get them.

Firstly, that was a great owners report for the absolute majority of AP shooters regarding whether to upgrade equipment or not. Secondly you may not be able to buy points over the counter as such but you certainly can buy better fitting, better balanced, better QC and engineered equipment that will undoubtedly dispense a big lump of increased confidence and almost certainly help scores.
Congratulations on your purchase.

Aw, Jeez, not this again. Do a Search!

DD was right....you can't buy points.

You actually got me thinking about getting a compact cylinder. Not because of reduce weight but for the sake of balance. The LP10E has no space for a grip weight (which you use to replace the spacer). So for me it is now a top heavy arm. I think with a short cylinder it will help a bit.

Rover wrote: DD was right....you can't buy points.

The full text that he quoted was:-

You still can’t buy points, but you CAN make it easier on yourself to get them.

It's the second part of the sentence that, IMHO, is most important.

David Levene wrote:

Rover wrote: DD was right....you can't buy points.

The full text that he quoted was:-

You still can’t buy points, but you CAN make it easier on yourself to get them.

It's the second part of the sentence that, IMHO, is most important.

and you can waste time and money an buying unsuitable firearms

I think he approached the problem well. He shot the IZH enough to get a feel for the game and what he likes & dislikes, and then got a good deal on a used PCP pistol which he customized to suit. From the sounds of it, it no longer looks much like a stock LP10.

Most of the students I coach don't like the LP10 because it's too heavy, and the balance is too far forward. Most of them prefer the Benelli Kites, which don't have the shroud, and can be had with three different cylinder lengths.

We've got some short Steyr cylinders, which help, but I'm considering ditching the shrouds as well and finding a compensator to mount up front. The Nygord compensator can still be bought from Larry's Guns. There is another thread that said the LP2 sight mount/compensator fits the LP10 barrel as well.

Gwhite wrote:There is another thread that said the LP2 sight mount/compensator fits the LP10 barrel as well.

I know several shooters who've done it.

Gwhite,
Over the last three years I've owned a Pardini K58, FWB 100, 5 IZH 46M's, Alfa Proj, Pardini K2S, and a Tau 7. That's why I knew what I wanted, and because of the surprising degree of adjustability on the LP10, including the weight and balance, it has become everything I could ever want. But many people can't afford to go through that many different pistols to find out what really suits them, and I was just trying to give some insight into some of my discoveries. Of course all of this is from my point of view. I'm 5'5", 145 lbs., short legs, stout torso. So for anyone who reads this, please keep in mind that what suits me may feel horrible to you.

My Nygord came with the front site blade attached, no need to add one. And you are right, it looks more like a LP2 than a 10. I'll add some pictures.

I think many people confuse "weight" with "balance", which are two completely different things as you well know. For instance, for folks who like the nose heaviness of a IZH46M, well what if you could retain the ratio of the front to back balance, but drop about 3/4 to 1 pound overall weight making it easier to shoot for longer periods? You'd still have the balance you prefer, but without all of the weight. I prefer a more neutral balance with light weight which is why from the list above, the Pardini K58 without the barrel weight fit me the best, and it weighed 1074 grams.

I never pay attention to manufacturers published weights except as a ballpark figure, I weigh all of my own. So this might help you with your weight vs balance decisions, some interesting reference numbers I got from my LP10M:

Full gun, shroud and 4 square barrel weights: 1010g.
Full gun, no weights: 965g.
Shroud alone with site blade: 95g.
Nygord compensator with front blade: 30g.
Stock trigger blade: 25g.
Rifle trigger blade: 3.57g.
Long air cylinder: 197g.
Short air cylinder: 161g.

As you can tell from this list and what I wrote before, I could still remove the stock trigger blade, install the rifle blade, and remove the barrel weight to get the LP10 down to 855g, also effecting the overall balance. It's wonderful to have all of these options to try to find the best balance/weight that suits you. And as I found, some of the changes will surprise you in terms of what your previous preferences were.

Thank you David. Do you know the weight of the LP2 site/compensator? It would be another option to have in the toolbox.

conradin,
The compact cylinder makes a considerable difference in the balance because that 36g is coming straight off of the very front of the gun. You could also go the route I did by removing the shroud. This definitely moves the center of gravity back towards the grip. You could then also add barrel weights back towards the breech. (Note: the LP2 barrel weight doesn't really fit the LP10 raw barrel, I had to shim mine, but I think Pardini has some that may fit better. Just to have that option available I'll be trying some in the future. The outside barrel diameter of an LP10 is 11mm). The difference between this and putting weights near the breech with the shroud on, is you will have removed all of the weight associated with the front of the shroud. This is what I love about this gun, it is so tunable. The trigger and the accuracy is really no better than some of the other guns I've had (at least at my level), but no other gun I know of can be fiddled with to this degree until you get it juuuuuust right.

Best Regards To All, and have fun tuning!

Scrench

Pictures.

This is all very interesting, but it makes me wonder why, when I look at the finals at world class matches, the guns usually look kinda stock.

Rover wrote:This is all very interesting, but it makes me wonder why, when I look at the finals at world class matches, the guns usually look kinda stock.

Do you think it might have something to do with the amount of training, physical as well as technical, that shooters at that level do?

Even though they are "kinda stock", I've seen a fair amount of variation in where weights are located. If you've trained enough to handle extra weight at the muzzle, the added moment of inertia will make the pistol more stable. Same thing for increasing the overall weight. Physics dictates that it will help, but only if everything else is equal. Deciding how much weight & muzzle heaviness you can shoot well over a match takes some experience.

Personally, I find a light pistol bounces around too much. However, depending on the grip angle, a lot of weight out front makes my elbow hurt. Everyone needs to find what works for them.

Scrench wrote: conradin,
The compact cylinder makes a considerable difference in the balance because that 36g is coming straight off of the very front of the gun. You could also go the route I did by removing the shroud. This definitely moves the center of gravity back towards the grip. You could then also add barrel weights back towards the breech. (Note: the LP2 barrel weight doesn't really fit the LP10 raw barrel, I had to shim mine, but I think Pardini has some that may fit better. Just to have that option available I'll be trying some in the future. The outside barrel diameter of an LP10 is 11mm). The difference between this and putting weights near the breech with the shroud on, is you will have removed all of the weight associated with the front of the shroud. This is what I love about this gun, it is so tunable. The trigger and the accuracy is really no better than some of the other guns I've had (at least at my level), but no other gun I know of can be fiddled with to this degree until you get it juuuuuust right.

Best Regards To All, and have fun tuning!

Scrench

The barrel weights as I found out actually make it more front heavy. I have taken mine off, and immediately the balance is much better.

I agree that the weight of a gun, particularly the mass, helps absorb movement caused by recoil, muzzle flip or other inertial oddities, particularly demonstrated in the unloading of any heavy vs light spring powered air gun with the same power source. But, now that we have a generation of guns that essentially exhibit none of those properties, let's call them "dead" guns, the weight that was used to negate those properties is no longer relevant. I believe that the sole determining criteria for what your gun should weigh is what you are comfortable with, incorporating whatever degree of balance you need to offset your personal wobble. Since some dead guns are now on the market, I think the future belongs to the people who are willing to experiment with lighter guns, and I can tell you from my experience that the amount of time I have for that window of finding the best shot has at least doubled since switching. I also base this on the simple idea that at the end of two 60 shot rounds and a 10 shot final, if I have a 2 pound gun and you have a 2.5 pound gun, you collectively had to lift 65 more pounds with one arm than I did by the end of the match. I'll even really go out on a limb (crack) and bet that the first 600 will be shot by a light, dead gun.

conradin
Sounds like you need to pull the shroud, install a Nygord, and then use lead tape on the flat side of your grip, and possibly, if your palm shelf is raised, drop it all the way down then put lead tape on top of it. That's the quick and easy way, but, If you want a solution that won't look terrible, get another palm shelf, route it out from the top all the way down before you punch through the bottom, leave only an 1/8th of an inch or so around the sides (as little as necessary), fill it with lead (I like the fishing weights at Academy sports or places like that, because it comes in many different sizes), then cover it back up. You'll just have to work around the screws. Looking at my palm shelf, I bet I could get a pound of lead in it, and that should solve your problem once and for all, be tunable, and the weight will be as low as possible which will improve your stability.

Scrench

Scrench wrote: I'll even really go out on a limb (crack) and bet that the first 600 will be shot by a light, dead gun.

Scrench

Sorry to rain on your parade, but that is not the way to improve your scores. You're doing a mistake that many "new" shooter do, blame the equipment.
ANY decent match gun will do a 600 from a vice. And I really doubt that any human is capable of such a feat!
This is not like motor sports, for example, where a tweak here and a tweak there will gain you 0.1 of a second per lap.

David Levene wrote:

Rover wrote:This is all very interesting, but it makes me wonder why, when I look at the finals at world class matches, the guns usually look kinda stock.

Do you think it might have something to do with the amount of training, physical as well as technical, that shooters at that level do?

I'm not saying that you don't need to set up the gun for your personal needs, but you don't have to go to extremes. Like it was said by Rover, most top shooters have their guns pretty much stock, with the exception of the grip, which most mold to their hand. That's it. The rest is up to the shooter, not the gun! And it isn't until you reach say 560 that you need to worry about the balance, or weight of the gun, or pellets (but that's not consensual), or any other things.

Don't take this the wrong way, because i'm writing after walking that path. But now that i look back, I see the errors of my way. And I struggled a year with that!
Stop focusing on the equipment and get back to basics. Sight alignment, and trigger release! That's it! No more, no less. Just that!

It wasn't until I let that really sink into my thick skull that my scores improved.

Genuinely hope this helps

Stop focusing on the equipment and get back to basics. Sight alignment, and trigger release! That's it! No more, no less. Just that!

It wasn't until I let that really sink into my thick skull that my scores improved.

Genuinely hope this helps

Don't many of us wish there was more to the story than that ! ........Unfortunately these words are the truth..the whole truth....and nothing but the truth !

Scrench wrote:I agree that the weight of a gun, particularly the mass, helps absorb movement caused by recoil, muzzle flip or other inertial oddities, particularly demonstrated in the unloading of any heavy vs light spring powered air gun with the same power source. But, now that we have a generation of guns that essentially exhibit none of those properties, let's call them "dead" guns, the weight that was used to negate those properties is no longer relevant. I believe that the sole determining criteria for what your gun should weigh is what you are comfortable with, incorporating whatever degree of balance you need to offset your personal wobble. Since some dead guns are now on the market, I think the future belongs to the people who are willing to experiment with lighter guns, and I can tell you from my experience that the amount of time I have for that window of finding the best shot has at least doubled since switching. I also base this on the simple idea that at the end of two 60 shot rounds and a 10 shot final, if I have a 2 pound gun and you have a 2.5 pound gun, you collectively had to lift 65 more pounds with one arm than I did by the end of the match. I'll even really go out on a limb (crack) and bet that the first 600 will be shot by a light, dead gun.

conradin
Sounds like you need to pull the shroud, install a Nygord, and then use lead tape on the flat side of your grip, and possibly, if your palm shelf is raised, drop it all the way down then put lead tape on top of it. That's the quick and easy way, but, If you want a solution that won't look terrible, get another palm shelf, route it out from the top all the way down before you punch through the bottom, leave only an 1/8th of an inch or so around the sides (as little as necessary), fill it with lead (I like the fishing weights at Academy sports or places like that, because it comes in many different sizes), then cover it back up. You'll just have to work around the screws. Looking at my palm shelf, I bet I could get a pound of lead in it, and that should solve your problem once and for all, be tunable, and the weight will be as low as possible which will improve your stability.

Scrench

Its funny how you say that. I had some time yesterday to watch the finals of 4 world cups this year. The one thing almost every finalist had in common was extra weights on their air pistols. A large majority had a large amount of extra weights. I didnt see a single pistol that had been lightened in anyway.

Also a 600 is no different to a 580. Its what happens while under pressure when shooting 1 shot in 45 seconds that counts

Muffo wrote: Its funny how you say that. I had some time yesterday to watch the finals of 4 world cups this year. The one thing almost every finalist had in common was extra weights on their air pistols. A large majority had a large amount of extra weights. I didnt see a single pistol that had been lightened in anyway.

Before anyone tries copying those finalists by adding extra weight, can I suggest that the starting point should be doing the hours of daily training that they do.

David Levene wrote:

Muffo wrote: Its funny how you say that. I had some time yesterday to watch the finals of 4 world cups this year. The one thing almost every finalist had in common was extra weights on their air pistols. A large majority had a large amount of extra weights. I didnt see a single pistol that had been lightened in anyway.

Before anyone tries copying those finalists by adding extra weight, can I suggest that the starting point should be doing the hours of daily training that they do.

Ain't no harm in experimenting.
Friend of mine has an LP10E with four tungsten weights reasonably far up (just behind the shroud logo?) - and it is a really absolutely dead in the hand. If the shot is on, man is it on.
Pretty tiring after awhile, you would want near Herculean strength to shoot it with any repeatability.

I think what would be interesting to experiment with, although prohibited by the rules, is a gyro.