Qiang Yuan Pellets Quality Control

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sat May 31, 2014 1:41 pm

While my primary choice of pellets is RWS R-10, I also use Qiang Yuan. I buy the plastic round can packaged one, not the box packaged one. I find it shocking that QY's quality control seems to be not so good. For 100 pellets, I find on average four pellets that are defective. Even some of the good ones are marginal, as the skirt do not seem to be perfectly circular.

Anyone has the same experience? Anyone use the box type and if so how is the quality control?

bpscCheney · Post by **bpscCheney** » Sat May 31, 2014 5:25 pm

The pellets were good for me, but they shot mediocre in my FWB 700 so I stuck to H&N Pistol Match.

Ulrich Eichstädt · Post by **Ulrich Eichstädt** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:25 am

That's a special ISSF requirement: 4 faulty pellets in a 500 tin, to prevent too many "full" scores...

Serious: You can never (with every manufacturer!) be sure that some pellets got damaged during the transport. Imagine a heavy package falling from a conveyer belt, and what happens to the lead pellets. That's the reason why many gun dealers take some expensive measures to receive match pellets, nearly from hand to hand...

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:24 pm

I think I figured out what is wrong. Packaging. QY is the only manufacturer that I know of that uses plastic for their cans. The plastic as opposed to tin, can, is pretty strong in feel when it is full of pellets, but when it is close to empty you can easily squeeze or crush it. So I think what happens is when stacks of QY cans begun to pile up during transportation or packaging process, the sheer weight would crush the can which is not that strong, as opposed to tin cans. The result is damaged pellets.

The higher grade one essentially is packaged in throw away pellet boxes. I doubt those have issues.

Post by **pilkguns** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:53 am

The good news is those skirt dings have no real effect on accuracy. You can squash the skirt nearly flat. and it will still hold in the group. Even in rifle.

Buying indvidually packed pellets is a false economy

justadude · Post by **justadude** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:18 am

While Pilk points out that condition of the skirt has little effect on accuracy and that individually packed pellets are a false economy there is the mental aspect to this:

If you do not trust your pellet, be it for real or imagined reasons, it is likely to impact your mental performance.

'Dude

Ulrich Eichstädt · Post by **Ulrich Eichstädt** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:28 am

pilkguns wrote:The good news is those skirt dings have no real effect on accuracy.

and pellets with square shirts don't roll away so easily ;)

Of course it is neglectable, and a non-damaged head is of much more importance. But you don't beat the psychological effect: some years ago H & N gave away samples of their FTT (Field Target Trophy) pellets for Field Target shooters at a german championship. Somehow most of the pellets had square skirts. I, too, believe that the influence on grouping is minimal to non-existent, but in Germany H & N's reputation was gone (even before they started with their match pellet crisis some years ago).

Of course one can use the tins and perhaps sort the pellets manually before a match into those plastic boxes to keep the count. But you also have to respect the positive effect of "one pellet, one target, one own competition" - or of cleaned shoes and teeth before an important appointment...

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:34 pm

pilkguns wrote:The good news is those skirt dings have no real effect on accuracy. You can squash the skirt nearly flat. and it will still hold in the group. Even in rifle

The average amount of skirt dings from a can of QY pellets are amazingly high, some of them pretty bad, While most dings would not affect the performance, I would never use them on a pistol like FWB65 because it would be a risk to break the seal of that pistol. Modern PCP pistol has no such problem.

Buying indvidually packed pellets is a false economy

I find it wasteful and bad for the environment. Maybe it is China's obsession of cheap cost without environmental regards and hence the massive reliance on using plastic materials.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:18 pm

It's nice that you're concerned with this useless piddling crap, but did you ever go to Dr. Wong for your shooting glasses; something that might really make a difference to your scores?

mbradley · Post by **mbradley** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:22 pm

I would like to understand how a damaged skirt does not affect accuracy. If something that obvious and deformed does not, what does?

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:21 pm

Many (most?) guns will "size" the pellet when you load and shoot it, especially those that load from a tray. I have found that one that is badly distorted will let the air leak by it, throwing it badly out of the group.

justadude · Post by **justadude** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:33 pm

To add to what Rover has said:

When you first put the pellet in the loading cone, assuming it has not been crushed flat the loading cone will force the skirt of the pellet back into a pretty much circular shape.

Next, when the air releases and starts to push the pellet the skirt gets blown out some and compressed against the lands and grooves of the barrel.

Between these two effects, as Rover says, most airguns will reshape the skirt.

Clearly there is a point where the skirt is so damaged the gun will not be able to bring it back but when the pellets are that bad you can usually feel without looking at it the pellet has something seriously wrong with it.

Cheers,
'Dude

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:34 am

Rover wrote:It's nice that you're concerned with this useless piddling crap, but did you ever go to Dr. Wong for your shooting glasses; something that might really make a difference to your scores?

Actually this will in the works in July after all my concerts are done. Dr. Wong's fees are not cheap, and also the prescription lens are not cheap either. When all said and done it it will cost me a grand. The doctor does not take insurance for this type of eye exam.
Speaking of which (this may need to move to another topic), do I need to have three prescription for my three different pistols, consider all the sight radius are different?

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:37 am

Rover wrote:Many (most?) guns will "size" the pellet when you load and shoot it, especially those that load from a tray. I have found that one that is badly distorted will let the air leak by it, throwing it badly out of the group.

Then the question is what is acceptable. I think it is a good idea to have a seater. When the QY pellets are poured into my pellet box, besides the obvious bad ones, quite a few of them look like they have "flowing" skirts, as if they have a ripple effect.

renzo · Post by **renzo** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:20 pm

I don't want to appear disrecpective Conradin, but I think you have to balance your investigative compulsion (however gratifying it can be to you) with the respective results.

While it's true that most of the time we try to use the best pellets we can afford just for a question of "peace of mind" while shooting a match, the same is not valid for training.

I'm not asking (and it will be better you keep it to yourself) which are your average scores. From what I gather from "leaks" of your posts I must conclude that you're not in the stage to be worrying about pellet quality in your practices.

Besides, if you haven't still got your prescription glasses, I don't think you're in a position to make judgements about it. As rest are not allowed in matches, it really doesn't matter the size of the rested groups, but of those you are capable of producing handholding your pistol.

It's very entertaining to test our weapons, and I am guilty as charged of that sin (many times), but in pistol shooting I've discovered that any decent ammo can keep the shots far better than I can.

In FP, there's hardly a name brand that will land the shots worse than the ten-ring, and remember that if you keep all your shots in the 9-ring you're headed for a shining big cup (or medal).

In AP, even RWS Hobby's kept the OUTER edge of a 20-shot hole inside the ten ring, and I once made a posssible of 600 with BB round pellets from my Steyr LP-1 C (20+ years ago) with the pistol in a vise.

I don't always go with Rover's opinions and/or advices, but in this case he is right on the money......... reading and testing is OK, but not to the point of displacing practice and competing!!

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:32 pm

Just get a "regular" eye exam that your insurance will cover. Then tell him to write you a scrip with what he thinks is the proper lens for your shooting. You can then buy just ONE lens to fit in some aftermarket frame.

It is basically just correcting your eyesight and for distance, plus adding +.50 diopters to pull your focus into the front sight.

You will get by with that ONE lens regardless of the length of your guns. Tell the Doc what (why) you're trying to do without going in the hole. I bet he'll work with you.

Don't whine to me about price when you're pissing away some of the most expensive ammo out there.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:04 pm

renzo wrote:I don't want to appear disrecpective Conradin, but I think you have to balance your investigative compulsion (however gratifying it can be to you) with the respective results.

While it's true that most of the time we try to use the best pellets we can afford just for a question of "peace of mind" while shooting a match, the same is not valid for training.

I'm not asking (and it will be better you keep it to yourself) which are your average scores. From what I gather from "leaks" of your posts I must conclude that you're not in the stage to be worrying about pellet quality in your practices.

Besides, if you haven't still got your prescription glasses, I don't think you're in a position to make judgements about it. As rest are not allowed in matches, it really doesn't matter the size of the rested groups, but of those you are capable of producing handholding your pistol.

It's very entertaining to test our weapons, and I am guilty as charged of that sin (many times), but in pistol shooting I've discovered that any decent ammo can keep the shots far better than I can.

In FP, there's hardly a name brand that will land the shots worse than the ten-ring, and remember that if you keep all your shots in the 9-ring you're headed for a shining big cup (or medal).

In AP, even RWS Hobby's kept the OUTER edge of a 20-shot hole inside the ten ring, and I once made a posssible of 600 with BB round pellets from my Steyr LP-1 C (20+ years ago) with the pistol in a vise.

I don't always go with Rover's opinions and/or advices, but in this case he is right on the money......... reading and testing is OK, but not to the point of displacing practice and competing!!

My OP is about QY pellets quality being below average to me when compare with my R-10. I want to see if that is the case with others and if so why. Somehow this turns into about my shooting. This is not a thread about my or anyone else shooting, this is about why an apparent solid brand has that many faulty pellets. Sure it is good to know the less than perfect skirt is not going to matter, but this is not the original intention of the OP.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:08 pm

Rover wrote:Just get a "regular" eye exam that your insurance will cover. Then tell him to write you a scrip with what he thinks is the proper lens for your shooting. You can then buy just ONE lens to fit in some aftermarket frame.

It is basically just correcting your eyesight and for distance, plus adding +.50 diopters to pull your focus into the front sight.

You will get by with that ONE lens regardless of the length of your guns. Tell the Doc what (why) you're trying to do without going in the hole. I bet he'll work with you.

Don't whine to me about price when you're pissing away some of the most expensive ammo out there.

Sounds good. Although I did not blow that much ammo as you think. One of my post is about how to avoid blowing good ammo (hence if it is OK to use cheap ammo) for training.

My insurance does not support eye care. I am on disability so medicare is all I get. I doubt medicare in Arizona will be different.

I will have to take TWO tests, one for right and one for left eye, then at least TWO prescription lenses. So that would be a total of around $800. My shooting glasses for left eye and right eye are of different brands.

justadude · Post by **justadude** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:07 pm

Getting back to the discussion on pellets and pellet quality.

In the book "Ways of the Rifle" there is a discussion about pellet testing. They point out that for Air Pistol, all but the poorest pellets will group inside the 10 ring. Now, clearly the better the pellet the greater your margin for error.

Next thing to consider here: If a pellet leaves the barrel headed at the exact center of the bull, any deviation from that path with reduce the quality of the shot. However if when the pellet leaves the barrel it is headed at say the 7 ring there is about a 25% chance deviation will improve the quality of the shot. The further away from a dead center bull you get the closer you get to a 50/50 chance inaccuracy of the pellet will improve or reduce the quality of the shot. The short version of this: unless you are at some reasonably high performance level so long as the pellets are decent, it does not make a whole heck of a lot of difference.

'Dude

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:16 pm

Well, we seem to have wandered a bit, so I'll just bulldoze through.

Sell your phobic, impulse-buy AR 15, buy a cheap used pump shotgun as a replacement (nothing is better for social work), and spend the rest on getting your eyes fixed. FYI you need two lenses for a pair of glasses and one lens for shooting.