TargetTalk

I am wondering what the consensus is regarding any minimum age/maturity/strength for a Junior boy progressing from supported to unsupported.
This is in relation to the Olympic 10m Air Rifle discipline.

I understand there are some issues regarding skeletal development that might need to be considered.

I would assume that going unsupported included the use of correct supportive air rifle clothing.

Would really like to hear the arguments for or against and any issues that are relevant

Thanks

Rally

Hmm I'm sure Joel will have good commentary here. As a coach of youth from 8-18 my best response is when they are ready, meaning, not when mom and dad are ready but when the youth in your coaching opinion is ready. You have to pair the equipment to the youth so if mom and dad bought a new lg300 I would not, for many reasons pair that with a new 8 year old shooter.

FWIW- my son started at age 8 in a general 4-h program where we worked fundamentals and developed all positions including unsupported offhand but the equipment is lighter so we focused on development success. At age 10 he was ready for Olympic offhand by age 10 and could handle his fwb 700 jr just fine.

I personally do not like the offhand rifle progression from bench to standing supported(using the offhand stand) to free standing. Using the stand has nearly no benefit because there is no proper placement of feet and body that emulates a true offhand position. If anything it develops false security and makes the jump to a true free standing mentally frustrating because you have to deconstruct the position and rebuild it.

If your youth like rifle shooting and they are under 10 I would go with something like a T200 and minimize other equipment jackets, pants ex until they get older. Keep it fun, no pressure (if they have the shooter mentality I'm sure they will already put enough pressure on themselves) and they wil develop into a strong long term shooter hopefully.

COBelties wrote:I personally do not like the offhand rifle progression from bench to standing supported(using the offhand stand) to free standing. Using the stand has nearly no benefit because there is no proper placement of feet and body that emulates a true offhand position. If anything it develops false security and makes the jump to a true free standing mentally frustrating because you have to deconstruct the position and rebuild it.

I'd agree with all that is said ... mainly not going to a heavy rifle too early.
A T200 or XSV-40 would be great.
My youngest also started at 8 & she shot CMP 3-P air (sporter) for a few years and learned all the positions with a light (887) rifle. Never went thru a supported standing ... can't really see the sense of that for the reasons stated above.

She let me know when she was ready to move on ... sorta. She wanted to quit at about 10-11 years old and I asked her if there was anything to keep her shooting ... she stated she wanted to go to precision air and smallbore. OK ... that was easy.

As stated ... give them a chance for success and progress them ... don't go too heavy too early, and if there is competition support in your area, don't turn up the nose at CMP 3-P air ... after some success there, then move them to International if that's what gets them excited.

Joel

Thanks Guys,
Great information from close to home experiences.

In this case my son is 12yo - fairly tall and fit.
He is also an archer and shoots a 3kg/6.6lb target bow with 26" front stabiliser and 10" rear stabiliser - this is shot with a fully extended arm and he can shoot that all day - meaning 100-200 shots and he may have to carry that bow (or another one) around all day for 4-8 hours and that is on steep rough terrain in the bush - unstable, rocky, bushy etc
eg today we shot a 3D Archery event - started at 10am, finished at 3.30pm with an hour off for lunch.

The rifle he shoots is an Anschutz 9003-S2 - at 4.5kg/9.9lb being held in close and supported by a bent arm from his body, it feels light.

He has shot unsupported without clothing a few times with a glove and from the very first time he always shoots well inside the scoring target (worth noting his worst score ever unsupported was 4.7) - he enjoys it !

When asked about the weight he said "he didnt even think about it - it was just so light" (the comparison being with his bow).

I see the FWB700-Jr, T200 and XSV-40 are around the 6.5-7lbs so slightly less weight than the 9003-S2.
That doesnt include any clothing of course, which adds a further load.

So from my uneducated perspective - the weight on its own is not a problem.

What has been raised as the potential problem is the possibility of a Junior having some sort of musculoskeletal development problems caused by jumping to unsupported too early.

I agree and so do others in our club regarding the unlearning of supported habits ! But I can see that its hard one.

He is just itching to go unsupported, he's tried it, liked it and shot well doing it. It is certainly not me pushing him.

We do have great coaching support, really, really good in fact, (Olympic standard by ex Olympians) but a key person for whom I have the utmost respect has raised these concerns.

I wonder if the ISSF have any guidelines or information regarding coaching Juniors ?

What do you think ?

Thanks

Rally

Rally,
It seems to me that your son is at a good age to go unsupported.
When you get a good set of decent fitting jacket & pants they really do not add to the load but distribute it.

There is always a concern in standing about back issues ... take for example Jamie Grey ... but the key is good coaching for a good stable position and having him do exercises to build up his core and evenly develop his muscles and not let his training only build those needed to support the rifle.

Some of the "old" standing positions taught many years ago used over twisting and exaggerated bends in the back to enhance support, but have also been shown to cause back problems.

Look at some of the newer articles (last 5-7 years) on the USA Shooting website (Resources) and the CMP website fo some very good starting points on a "safe" position.

Thanks,

I just read up about Jamie - a terrible outcome for her.

I wonder if this problem has affected males and females equally, or just something unique to her body and/or her training.

I tried looking for the documents you mentioned on both sites and found the repositories, but couldnt find anything specific to "safe" posture and form.
The one pdf that looked likely was missing.
If you can think of any other docs on good core exercising and muscle training I would be grateful.

Rally

I started shooting at 12 at my rifle club, shooting a 7-9 pound anschutz 64. The tiny thing, and it was way too light. At the time I needed a 10 pound gun, so I moved up to a winchester 52 "Number 11". It was perfect. Later on I got a 1914 and the weight is almost perfect, around 11-12 pounds. I'm 14 now, and anything in the 10-12 pound range is ideal for me, and my FWB 700 alu fits me like a glove. While my 7 pound Crosman Challenger is too light, but I can still shoot darn good with it.

I believe it has to do more with how well the rifle fits over how heavy it is, but I guess that depends on the person.

Make sure their spines are solidly developed before you hand them a 10 pound rifle though, or there is a possibility they will end up like Jamie.

Just thought I'd post some feedback on our progress

It seems he was ready to go unsupported.

My son was loaned a jacket 2 weeks ago and a pair of trousers last Thursday for the first time
Up to that point he has been shooting supported off a stand with an occasional unsupported shoot.

He shoots ISSF 10m and also 10m Precision Indoor scoped at another club

Last Friday he shot his first Scoped 40 shot match and managed a Masters grade score - 394.17
The next day on Saturday he competed in an unofficial knockout match training with some other Juniors and Seniors who were training for the World Champs in Granada - just because he happened to be there ! - he came 5th out of the 6 and even though it was a knockout - all shooters kept shooting through - he was within a few points of 4th place throughout the match !

One of his 10 shot series at ISSF 10m was 100.6 last night - for this he tried on another shooters boots to try
Now I need to get some Euro size 43 Boots !!!

So shooting wise he is fine, we will just need to develop a proper exercise/stretching routine for him - something to build up his core and help support his spine
If there are any references around for this - I'd love to read them

Many thanks to all

Rally

Back problems from poor positions are not just for the women. Bob Foth also had back surgery and quit shooting (now paralympic national coach)

As far as core straightening, see: http://www.armyprt.com/special_conditio ... core.shtml This is the program developed for the army by a PHD physical therapist who also works with shooters. It is simple, and effective. I've used it, and am about to start again.

I'm not a fan of the "supportive clothing" for two reasons, is gives artificial support which hinders development of the muscles needed, and I feel it is not in compliance with the general rule against artificial support. (Let the flame war begin). Jackets originally were to give padding to the elbows and a pad for the sling to go around, and hung loosely one the shooter. The traousers were also very loose, but with a seat thin seat pad and knee pad to keep one dry on the outdoor ranges which were sometimes wet and muddy. Neither gave any support. I have stopped using anything other than a shooting glove, and if I didn't already own it, I'd just use a leather winter driving glove.

My top junior shooters had, and wore, all the fancy clothing in matches, but most training was done without the pants and jacket. They did use the clothing in training enough to break it in, and learn the proper adjustments. When the went to a match it was just an added positive feeling for them when they put the stuff on.

I feel most shooters overgun (weight wise) them selves, and would be better off with lighter guns they could more easily handle.

Thanks for the core training link Pat.
I have it printed and will put it to use.

Without being silly I intend to do all I can to minimise any possible problems.

Rally