TargetTalk

I joined a club that shoots at night, which is excellent because it gives me more chances to shoot. The problem is that I've never shot at night before and despite having generally good eyesight I really struggle with the black sights on the full black rapid fire target.

I'm curious if others have the same problem and how they've dealt with it.

I've seen some shooters paint their front sight but I'm not sure about how effective this would be. I understand that many excellent shooters follow their sights from 45 degrees all the way to the target but this has never worked for me. At the moment for shooting the rapid fire section of sport pistol at night I 'find' the sights below the target, then lift up slightly and fire. I can kind of maintain the sights visually when I've started on a light background, and while it's time-consuming and is undoubtedly costing me points, it seems to be the most effective method for me so far. My usual method of lifting the sights to the aiming point immediately serves me well during the day but is problematic at night; often I lose the sights completely and have to release the shot not knowing where it will go. Surprisingly enough I haven't lost any shots yet but there were some wild groups before I nutted out my current strategy. The last couple of shoots have been decent enough now that I have that strategy but the rapid fire still feels like a bit of a lottery that I could lose big-time at any given moment.

One thing I thought would instantly solve the problem is an inverted rapid fire target [Inverted colour, not orientation obviously.] But I've never seen or heard of any such target and couldn't find much information when searching.

As an aside, I think the problem has actually helped my concentration because I have to focus so hard on the extra steps involved, not just to try to shoot a 10 but to make sure my shot is on the target.

Any advice, suggestions or relaying of your own experiences would be appreciated.

Is there any illumination on the sights?

Trying to focus on the sights in silhouette is impossible.

I'd say to make sure you have a shooting lens that has +0.75 diopters, in addition to any distance vision correction.

Shooting is about depth of field. The iris of your eye, or the aperture of your sights (whichever is smaller) will determine your depth of field. The lens in your eye plus your glasses will determine where that depth of field is centered. You want it centered between the target and the front sight, such that the front sight is in the near edge of your depth of filed at the same time as the target is in the far edge. Duting the day, with more light, the pupil constricts, giving you a bigger depth of field, so if it is not perfectly centered, you can still see reasonably. However at night, your pupil dilates, and your depth of field diminishes. This is why it is more difficult for older people to read in low light.

Getting a lens to draw your focus back will center your depth of field, even if your eye cannot do it, and will prevent the front sight from washing out as badly when your depth of field is cut short.

The 0.75 diopter will also work in daylight, but in low light its benefit is increased.

Art Neergaard
ShootingSight LLC
www.shootingsight.com
shootingsight@fioptics.com

You could try aiming at the white under the target

It takes a bit of getting used to, but does work.
If your rear sight will not adjust up far enough to put the shots in the centre of the target and it works for you, you could reduce the front sight height.
My Morini CM22M just squeaks it in without the ptwang factor coming in to play.

Jacko wrote: I really struggle with the black sights on the full black rapid fire target.

You either aim at the white on the bottom of the target as Spencer said, or you could try to change the color of your sights.

You basically need contrast between the target and your sights.

So, instead of painting them, you could use a white sticker, cut to the shape of the rear notch and another on the front sight also cut to shape.

This will give you white sights on a black target.

Now you problem is reversed. You have white sights on a white/yellow target in the precision stage... Simple, just use a center aim. No clicks between stages.

This is only a compromise because you are shooting at night, if you shoot during the day forget the white sights and the center aim for the precision stage.

Just an idea. Hope it helps

Spencer I'm not sure why I didn't think to try that; I remember when my old man's vision started deterioriating I suggested the exact same thing and helped him set up his S&W like that. Like your Morini it just scraped in. I have no idea if my Pardini will get there but I'll give it a go next time I'm at the range. It's perplexing that I didn't already try it. I already aim there now to start with...

Do you only shoot like that at night or all the time?

If that works it's all sorted, otherwise I'll look at changing the colour of the sights or somehow getting more light on them as suggested.

And ShootingSight I knew none of the optical information you provided so I've recorded it for future reference.

Thanks to all posters for the help.

Jacko wrote:,,,Do you only shoot like that at night or all the time?...

nighttime is for 10m (grin)

for RFP I tend to use it all the time.
in RFP I find the white lines on the target more a distraction than any help. My scores dropped dramatically when the lines were introduced and I 'gave up' on RFP for many years.
Area aim into the bottom of the target enables me to concentrate at/on the front sight.
Be aware that the changed technique took me (admittedly an OLD dog) several weeks at a brick of ammo each session to get used to.

Off the thread topic, but related to the bottom of the current RF target is releasing the shot while on the rise for the rapid fire stage of CF - lots of shooters got 290+ using this technique

Spencer wrote:Off the thread topic, but related to the bottom of the current RF target is releasing the shot while on the rise for the rapid fire stage of CF - lots of shooters got 290+ using this technique

Really? Hmm... I wonder why. I can only guess that the smooth ascent helps but it seems like releasing the shot like that would cause more problems than it solves. Can't argue with results though. It's on my list of things to try in practice. Cheers.

I really want to try this point of aim change now. The problem is family and work stuff will get in the way of shooting for the next week or so... so I get to stew on it for a bit longer.

Edit - Mate if I'm an old dog who can shoot 100 strings in a session then I'll be cheering. And "lots of shooters"... no need to be modest!

Spencer wrote:Off the thread topic, but related to the bottom of the current RF target is releasing the shot while on the rise for the rapid fire stage of CF - lots of shooters got 290+ using this technique

That was certainly a viable technique on the pre-1989 targets, but I found it less successful on the 1989 targets.

It is surprising what a difference fresh black soot can make. I mean acetylene soot not a candle or lighter etc. There is obviously some light on the target and the RF target is a big one.

I tried a bottom aim when the targets were first introduced but there is no control on the colour of the background if you go too low *, so there is a problem on different ranges and that was in daylight. (the white is very narrow at this point).

* David will correct me if I am wrong.

Spencer wrote:in RFP I find the white lines on the target more a distraction than any help. My scores dropped dramatically when the lines were introduced and I 'gave up' on RFP for many years.

Spencer, you are supposed to focus on the front sight ;)

Only time I've ever seen the white lines is when I was servicing targets.

A word on painted sights. I tried that once (only) with whiteout and was dismayed to find/realise that most firing lines are in the shade so the sights are still black. It only worked for me when in the open air (in daylight) with light on the sights.

I use an acetylene sight blackener which gives me the best contrast with centre aim. I've not tried it at night but shooting at the RF target with the black powder boys gives plenty of contrast with all that BP smoke swirling about - provided of course that you can still see the target...!

Bob

john bickar wrote:

Spencer wrote:Spencer, you are supposed to focus on the front sight ;)...

You know it and I know it (ShootingSight is entitled to have a different opinion).
Sitting in on the debriefing of shooters who have come off the line after a blistering Stage/Relay, the common answer to 'how was it' is "there was me and the front sight".

john bickar wrote:

Spencer wrote:...Only time I've ever seen the white lines is when I was servicing targets.

When they were first introduced I knew they were there, could not tune them out, and my focus was drawn to them.

depending on the lighting of your targets and the background color under the black circle you can certainly use that area for aiming. i was having problems with the traditional method and switched to aiming under the black. it helps that the targets in our range have a uniform color under the black. for me this works quite well having gone from sub 500 scores to over 520. only "problem" is if you even slightly cant your pistol your 10 will go to 8 (and at the 4sec it may even go to 6).
now if only i had more time to practice :)

Spencer wrote:When they were first introduced I knew they were there, could not tune them out, and my focus was drawn to them.

Well then, for heaven's sakes, don't ever think of your shoelaces. Or pink elephants :D

Back to the OP's question, I shoot in a bullseye league that is year-round in the evenings, outdoors, from 6:30 - 9PM. I shot iron sights in that league from 2007 through 2012, and it was quite challenging in the darker months of the year. I'll try to look through my journal to find what I did when I was most successful in the winter months, but ultimately I switched to a red dot in large part because tracking the sights in the black abyss was so challenging. (Unfortunately not an option for international events.)

I do remember that I had to be very, very diligent on (trying to track) the front sight in recoil, and to be sure to keep the trigger moving.

If nothing else, look at it as an environmental challenge to meet, much like rain, wind, etc. Your scores may be less than they are in optimal lighting conditions, and so you may just have to adjust your expectations.

FWIW, I've never been a sight blackener. This comes from the Erich Buljung school of thought, which is that putting a scratch (or whatever) on your front sight is a temporary crutch, because you eventually end up ignoring that scratch just as easily as you were ignoring the front sight previously. But I'm also a "trigger focus" shooter, which puts me in the (estimated) 10% or so minority of successful pistol shooters.