TargetTalk

I just received an email from Amanda at larry's guns. She said Larry left her a note and said the cylinders are new but the certification life is short so I could return the gun but did not say if there would be a $260 restocking fee which they said they would charge for the return. The other cylinder is two years old so for the both two years on one and five years on the other -they would refund$59 or I could send it back.
Amanda also said they would be checking cylinder dates from now on.
The gun was mailed out this morning insured for the full amount.
I also put all the info I had in a note.
Robinhoods

I hope I didn't upset anybody-but I felt I had to at least warn someone that buying new means you should still ask questions and confirm what you are getting.

Just curious, did you shoot the gun or just open it up and check everything? If you shot it, I would think he would charge a restocking fee since he can't sell it as new any longer, if not, you should get a full refund. I'm guessing may have to cover the return shipping but who knows maybe he will come through for you on that as well. With the one tank having a born date 5 yrs. old, I think you should have been offered $100 off (about 1/2 the price of a new cylinder). I would have returned it as well. Why doesn't the air gun industry just require that the tank be re-certified like scuba tanks? Seems like 20 yrs. would make more sense.

No I filled it and shot about 30 shots-put the gun back in the case and saw the date on the other cylinder which said 2012 then looked at the one I filled and it said 2009.
Never ever thinking they were not 2014-what else would I think-it was a new gun.
anyway it's over-lesson learned by not just me I hope. Believe me if Pilkguns sold the Benelli,I would have bought it from him.
robinhoods

Robinhoods;

Have been following your threads on the purchase of your Benelli Kite.
Find it interesting, but may be totally wrong in what am about to say.

I believe that when you order a Benelli Kite from the manufacturer, it comes with only one cylinder.

When you order a Benelli Kite from an importer there would be an option of two cylinders.

One cylinder will be the one that it was shipped with from the manufacturer and one that the importer had as an extra.

I believe you purchased a new old stock Benelli Kite which was two years old and received an extra cylinder that was a bit dated.

You had intentions of selling but could not as you say cause of the out dated cylinder.

You received the pistol and did not inspect it and fired it and now it is a used pistol no longer able to be sold as new.

You want to return it with full money back plus or minus shipping and restocking fees.

Question is, what is the true reason of returning the pistol ?

You cannot just order new pistols and test fire them and return them for all your money back.(would be nice, but is not going to happen).

As far as dated cylinders go, it is bullcrap, no one checks and doubt you or I will ever be in the position to have them checked...just saying.

So my honest opinion is that you will pay the shipping and a restocking fee.

JMHO
Clarence

nice try perkins.
Maybe that is what you do but not me.
I already told you I received all my money back from discover minus the shipping fee and they also said I could return it.-you haven't followed very well as I also said the gun has gone back to them.

I was also following your posts and was kind of on your side but your snide reply to cperkins who had some valid points has tipped me way the other direction. Lets face it we all have a responsibility to inspect goods on arrival - before using. I have always been able to work things out with a vendor to complete satisfaction, plus they usually comp me some way for the way I handled it. That's what I do, but obviously not you!

I'm a big boy-I can handle it.
Snide remarks-Like when he said I bought a new gun and tried it out and then tried to return it for full value.
I don't think so. Maybe he has done that but I don't do stuff like that at all.
All the vender had to do was send me 2012 or 2013 cylinders.
I have bought plenty of guns USED-just to try them out and then sell them but never new. I'm new at this competition pistol stuff. Never -ever thought New didn't mean up to date.
Hey I'm out of this forum for awhile and let you guys find something more interesting to do.
I'm going down right now to shoot the Steyr.
Robinhoods

Just got a Benelli Kite from larry's Guns about a month ago. Both my Cylinders were brand new wrapped in plastic and clearly marked 2009-2019. I never bothered to bring it up because I have 5 years still. Maybe in 5 years I will be shooting at a level where they check those things but right now why worry about it. How are most cylinders dated?

robinhoods wrote:nice try perkins.
Maybe that is what you do but not me.
I already told you I received all my money back from discover minus the shipping fee and they also said I could return it.-you haven't followed very well as I also said the gun has gone back to them.

Sorry robinhoods;
But no where did you state that you received "all my money back".
Good for you .
Not here to argue.
Just made some valid points about a transaction between a firearms dealer and buyer.
I have had many over the years and they all can be delt with in a civilized fashion.
Oh, by the way, that is Mr.Perkins, to you ;)
Enjoy the Steyr, good choice.

Clarence

Hey "MR PERKINS"
life is to short to be really mad about anything.
You did bring up some good points.
I did start off kind of strong and on the wrong foot but I am not perfect.

robinhoods.

Seems to me a consistency check is in order Robin. As in... 'life is too short...' contrasts rather starkly with the public beat-down on Larry's Guns for the old cylinders. I have to agree that I too would be concerned if I ordered a brand new AP and got not only old cylinders, but old cylinders from different years. Smacks of cobbling together a package instead of selling a new kit. But I'd take it up with Larry, or whoever, thoroughly, before bringing it up in a public forum. That's just mean. How about 'life is too short to go around abusing others in public without justification.'? You've been buying up a lot of guns lately, talking a lot about your experiences with them, asking a lot of advice for the past few months. It's taking you some time to acquire experience, and you are by your own statements still a beginner. How about cutting folks a bit of slack in the anger department and trying to give a fair chance at sorting things out before going on a public rampage against a business? If Larry's is actually trying to clear out old stock at new stock prices, knowingly putting customers into an awkward position regarding the new ISSF rule on cylinder age without giving suitable warning or a discount for devaluation, then by all means you have every right to complain. In due course. Once every other avenue has been exhausted. A couple of emails and a phone call or whatever you did is not exhaustive. If Larry's were in a litigious mood they might even consider your postings about their business as grounds for a suit...

I don't think he would want a suit.
I have all the pics and emails and still have never talked to him but through amanda - I think that is her name. They already have the gun and evaluated it and the current situation. we probably have about seven emails and five phone calls so far. When she sent me a picture of the gun-both were blue cylinders but I asked if she could get a black cylinder and she said yes-so I know the cylinder came from her but she didn't check the date.
she emailed saying she didn't check thinking they were all new but from now on she would check dates.
Thanks for the advice though.
Robin

My only question in this silly debate is----are y0u going to shoot internationally under ISSF rules? If not why get your shorts in a bunch over the date on the tanks---it's the ISSF "---- stirring" again. Relax the cylinder will be good for more than 10 years. "Doc"

So you requested a special cylinder, one not included normally with the manufacturer's kit... and then you publicly attack the shop before resolving the issue when this specially requested black cylinder comes to you with the wrong date on it? You threw sand in the gears with your special request. Amanda fulfilled your request, but failed to note the old date on the cylinder. You initiate your complaint... then slay Larry's character as a shop with a thread entitled "Larrys guns.watch out-slippery". Wow. I mean weird grammar/punctuation aside, what the hell dude? Take a yoga course or something, learn to calm down. As you suggested, life is too short. I would recommend you request the moderators delete that thread, as it stands as an embarrassment to all concerned.

ok you are putting me on right.
What do you mean special cylinder.
I asked her if they had black and she said yes. I didn't order something special.
relax-nobody is seething at the mouth right now. what do you think I just got the gun and saw the date and posted. There were emails and phone calls and I am done as of now-They took the gun back so that says something right there.
go relax now and get some sleep. look for a new topic to jump in.

45ACP223 wrote:Just curious, did you shoot the gun or just open it up and check everything? If you shot it, I would think he would charge a restocking fee since he can't sell it as new any longer, if not, you should get a full refund. I'm guessing may have to cover the return shipping but who knows maybe he will come through for you on that as well. With the one tank having a born date 5 yrs. old, I think you should have been offered $100 off (about 1/2 the price of a new cylinder). I would have returned it as well. Why doesn't the air gun industry just require that the tank be re-certified like scuba tanks? Seems like 20 yrs. would make more sense.

Out of curiosity what is "new"?
Every pistol is usually given a few shots on a paper target. Sometimes it is one shot, sometimes you can tell whether there were three or four shots. That paper target always come with the pistol. Usually the brand, grade, etc of the ammo (pellet) will be listed.

I think if you shot 30 that pistol definitely cannot be considered "new" anymore. But if someone made half a dozen shots, and inform me that they shot it as a bench test, I would consider AS NEW.

For the record I have four cylinders for my LP10, only two of which are new. The other two work perfectly fine, and in fact, are the ones that I use the most.

Personally I would not argue too much about the difference of a few years for a cylinder. I would just ask for some refund, or some coupons for the next purchase. A cylinder that is already 5 years old is actually not gonna make much difference in real life, as long as you have a brand new cylinder. I would definitely ask for a few goodies like high grade pellets to make up for the few lost years of the second cylinder. Shipping a cylinder back and forth seems silly to me unless that is the ONLY cylinder that you have. Most people survive on one cylinder. My extra two cylinders originally came from Buck directly. So I actually consider them more legitimate than the new ones that I have.

While I don't agree with the hasty public slaying of a retailer, I think it's great that some people are vocal about the issue - that is how things will change for the better, as companies will start getting a lot of returned cylinders. Most consumers are quite laid back about it, often saying it only matters if you're a "pro athlete". I can't say I really do understand that stance since cylinders consist of more than 20% of the total price of a new pistol. Of course, that is only an unrealized loss as the hit will be felt when you resell it (or feel uneasy about "unsafe cylinders").

Dates on cylinders don't have anything to do with the ISSF/USAS - apart from the rules that state that manufacturers dictate the "expiry date". Everybody knows it's legal/financial BS (Morini changing from 20 to 10...) yet people still roll with it and accept paying full price for partially expired goods. If manufacturers want to impose an expiry date for the sake of safety, they better find a way for customers to have current year cylinders when they buy, "impose" a structure on retailers to discount 10%/year/cylinder like Pilk does, R&D cheaper ways to requalify cylinders at the factory or start a trade-in program for old expired cylinders.

You make an excellent point V76. My only quibble is that it seems an inefficient and potentially cruel way of going about affecting such a change with the manufacturers/associations involved, putting the brunt of the burden, at least initially, upon the retailers. The rule change is hardly their fault. What about a certified date engraving process? Cylinders could be sent out to the distributors and eventually retailers or whatever the path may be, then when a pistol is purchased that purchase date is engraved on the cylinder in a certified and safe manner. The 10 years would begin only upon release to the customer. In that way we could be reasonably sure that a new cylinder had not been filled more than once, and as it is the flexing of the tube through sheer numbers of filling/emptying cycles which stresses the metal, it would seem to make sense that even with a little bit of in-shop testing there would be no undue wear and tear on the materials. ISSF rule is met. Customer is happy. Retailer bears only a small added responsibility, perhaps to use a special 'approved' tool to do the date engraving. By such a method a new pistol kept on the shelf for a few years would lose no value. Everybody wins.

We have been over this so many times.

It is not the manufacturers' decision to put a 10 year limit on the cylinders, it is European law.

David Levene wrote:We have been over this so many times.

It is not the manufacturers' decision to put a 10 year limit on the cylinders, it is European law.

Unfortunately. Yes.

http://gsi.nist.gov/global/docs/EUGuide ... ipment.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/ ... dex_en.htm