TargetTalk

Pellet weights for pistol clearly vary by manufacturer. For example
Vogel 8.1gr
RWS 7.0gr
H&N 7.5gr

Is there a real or theoretical reason for this? Will some brands of air pistol prefer different weights. Just wondering......I miss regardless of the weight.
Good shooting,
Brian

theory: the formula for kinetic energy is:

E=1/2*m*v^2. m is the mass of the pellet, and v its velocity. so, if your gun works properly, the pellet should always have about the same ENERGY after leaving the barrel. this means, according to the formula, the higher the mass of the pellet, the lower its velocity, and vice versa. in other words, lighter pellets have a higher velocity than heavier pellets if shot from the same gun.

so if you take a pistol like the fwb 65/80/90 series, which cant produce as much energy( v~120 m/s) compared to something like a lp 10, etc(v~ 160 m/s), you can speed it up a little bit, which leads to cleaner holes in the target, and possibly(!) reduces mistakes in your technique because of shorter barrel time.

flolo wrote:theory: the formula for kinetic energy is:

E=1/2*m*v^2. m is the mass of the pellet, and v its velocity. so, if your gun works properly, the pellet should always have about the same ENERGY after leaving the barrel. this means, according to the formula, the higher the mass of the pellet, the lower its velocity, and vice versa. in other words, lighter pellets have a higher velocity than heavier pellets if shot from the same gun.

so if you take a pistol like the fwb 65/80/90 series, which cant produce as much energy( v~120 m/s) compared to something like a lp 10, etc(v~ 160 m/s), you can speed it up a little bit, which leads to cleaner holes in the target, and possibly(!) reduces mistakes in your technique because of shorter barrel time.

Is the difference all that practically great or are we effectively rationalizing results? Just a question. You may be right. I suspect consistency of the pellet is more important to top shooters. I'd like to know why manufacturers decide to make virtually their entire line anywhere from 7 to a little over 8grs for pistol. Why 7 for RWS and 8 for Vogel? Is H&N just splitting the difference? That said, there are minor differences in wadcutter shapes amongst manufacturers. Are they just optimizing weight for their shapes?

may depend on who offered the lighter pellets first and when. i'm not sure about the history of pistol pellets but they were on the market when i started shooting in the early nineties. by then everybody had either something like fwb 65 or 100 series or one of the new fancy, ultrafast CO2-guns. and important here is the "or":maybe through testing they found out that at higher velocities heavier pellets group better, and then turned to something in between. or it's just a marketing strategy. who knows...

at least from my own testing experience i can say that all pistols i ever owned or own(lp50, lp10, lp10e,lp400, cm162ei) grouped tighter with heavier pellets and felt better with the lighter varieties

flolo wrote:may depend on who offered the lighter pellets first and when. i'm not sure about the history of pistol pellets but they were on the market when i started shooting in the early nineties. by then everybody had either something like fwb 65 or 100 series or one of the new fancy, ultrafast CO2-guns. and important here is the "or":maybe through testing they found out that at higher velocities heavier pellets group better, and then turned to something in between. or it's just a marketing strategy. who knows...

at least from my own testing experience i can say that all pistols i ever owned or own(lp50, lp10, lp10e,lp400, cm162ei) grouped tighter with heavier pellets and felt better with the lighter varieties

Lighter pellet,less recoil, makes sense. I'll have to try the Vogel and better H&N pellets and see if my groupings improve. Of the inexpensive pellets, the RWS Basic seem a little more quality controlled than the H&N Excite. That said, I suspect there are more variables than pellet weight for me to concern myself with at this point. lol

Brian Lafferty wrote:Pellet weights for pistol clearly vary by manufacturer. For example
Vogel 8.1gr
RWS 7.0gr
H&N 7.5gr

Brian,
Your original assumption is incorrect. All major .177 target pellet manufacturers make pellets of several different weights, usually ranging from 6.9gr to 8.3gr. The lighter weight pellets are often called "light" or "pistol" and the heavier ones "heavy" or "rifle". Check the manufacturers' sites for the many options.
The only time the weight makes a difference is if you are using a very low-powered pistol (e.g. some SSPs) and want a faster velocity to cut cleaner holes. Just find a pellet that you can afford and seems to work well in your pistol, and don't obsess about phantom issues like recoil. BTW, if you want to learn more, there is much (far too much) information about pellet testing on Target Talk. It's a diversion.
FredB

FredB wrote:

Brian Lafferty wrote:Pellet weights for pistol clearly vary by manufacturer. For example
Vogel 8.1gr
RWS 7.0gr
H&N 7.5gr

Brian,
Your original assumption is incorrect. All major .177 target pellet manufacturers make pellets of several different weights, usually ranging from 6.9gr to 8.3gr. The lighter weight pellets are often called "light" or "pistol" and the heavier ones "heavy" or "rifle". Check the manufacturers' sites for the many options.
The only time the weight makes a difference is if you are using a very low-powered pistol (e.g. some SSPs) and want a faster velocity to cut cleaner holes. Just find a pellet that you can afford and seems to work well in your pistol, and don't obsess about phantom issues like recoil. BTW, if you want to learn more, there is much (far too much) information about pellet testing on Target Talk. It's a diversion.
FredB

My point was that what manufacturers call pistol pellets are weighted similarly within the manufacturer's range and they are lighter than "rifle" pellets. All RWS pistol pellets are weighed at 7gr. (I'm considering Diablo Basic as a pistol pellet because it is 7gr.) Their rifle pellets are 53 grams---the same as a Vogel pellet which they don't label as pistol or rifle. All H&N pistol pellets fall around 7.5gr. All of their rifle pellets are 8.18 grains. I am going to shoot with RWS rifle pellets in my Kite tomorrow and see what the results are. I'd still like to know if manufacturer weights relate to wadcutter design and how so if they do. To be continued.................unless the FTC commences action in the morning for improper/misleading labeling. :-)

I have to agree that this pellet issue is a diversion. We, the average shooter will lose more points to poor trigger control than anything else.
Unless you average 585 of better, buy more inexpensive pellets and increase your knowledge of what trigger control really means, then practice everyday.
Me, I am going to start to cast my own pellets from plutonium. This way I can visually track the path of the pellets down range as they glow. I am sure this will increase my average !

fondest regards,

Dr.

Don't forget the racing stripes for more performance! Also, be sure to ask Clarence Perkins about the benefits of farkling.

Brian Lafferty wrote: My point was that what manufacturers call pistol pellets are weighted similarly within the manufacturer's range and they are lighter than "rifle" pellets. All RWS pistol pellets are weighed at 7gr. (I'm considering Diablo Basic as a pistol pellet because it is 7gr.) Their rifle pellets are 53 grams---the same as a Vogel pellet which they don't label as pistol or rifle. All H&N pistol pellets fall around 7.5gr. All of their rifle pellets are 8.18 grains. I am going to shoot with RWS rifle pellets in my Kite tomorrow and see what the results are. I'd still like to know if manufacturer weights relate to wadcutter design and how so if they do. To be continued.................unless the FTC commences action in the morning for improper/misleading labeling. :-)

Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. One reason that happened is that I have never met an experienced AP shooter who paid any attention to whether the pellets are marked "rifle" or "pistol". Anyway, if you actually weighed some of the pellets you mentioned, you would find that the indicated weights are approximate, and different batches will vary by several tenths of a grain. So your H&N lights might actually weigh 7.2gr (as some of mine do), and your RWS lights might actually weigh 7.1gr. Also, if you chronograph pellets in the same weight range, you will find that lighter is not always faster. Bottom line, nominal weights are just that - nominal - and are of no concern unless you're shooting a very low-powered AP. In any case, I suspect that the variation between manufacturers in nominal weights might simply be an artifact of different "translations" of .50g and .53g (NOT 53 grams) into grains.

OK... I'll bite. What is Farkling ?
I am sure it is something I must know about.

Dr.

Dr.Lee

Rover describes my air pistol as a "farkle".

It is a red, white and blue USA Shooting limited edition Steyr LP1 PCP air pistol.
Only 250 produced and do not know how many were totally engraved by Scott Pilkington(our host).
Mine is not engraved, but do very much like the looks of the pistol.
They were produced in 1999 I believe to help fund the 2000 Olympics for the USA shooters (Scott should jump in here and set the record straight).
I have #237 and it is a very good looking and functional air pistol.
Would never think of getting rid of it.

"Farkle/ Farkel" from the urban dictionary is function and sparkle.

You gots to love Rover :)

Clarence Perkins

Back to the topic, sorry got farkled :)

I just shoot R10 match 7.0 gr and forget about all the testing stuff.
Should shoot more AP but have too many irons in the fire.
I must say that the irons are slowly being removed from the fire as this day and age of ammunition availability is ...
Pellets are cheap and I can shoot in my back yard for almost free.
I can tell you that my best year of Bullseye shooting was when I shot a lot of air pistol, it taught you trigger control.

Clarence Perkins

Clarence is right, and judging from my own testing (search pellets under my handle) it just doesn't matter enough to worry.

Having carried out a considerable amount of pellet testing with the LP1 and LP10E, the main observation would be that once you find a pellet that gives a consistent muzzle velocity and appears to give a good group on the target, then you have eliminated that possibility for a variable and can concentrate on perfecting your sight alignment and trigger control.
More points will be lost/gained by perfecting these two parts of the shot creation process than any amount of pellet testing.
Back to the subject, there are some learned sources who have concluded that the heavier air rifle pellets have a flatter trajectory when fired from a pistol, when compared to the slightly lighter air pistol pellets.
And so the debate goes on.

FredB wrote:

Brian Lafferty wrote: My point was that what manufacturers call pistol pellets are weighted similarly within the manufacturer's range and they are lighter than "rifle" pellets. All RWS pistol pellets are weighed at 7gr. (I'm considering Diablo Basic as a pistol pellet because it is 7gr.) Their rifle pellets are 53 grams---the same as a Vogel pellet which they don't label as pistol or rifle. All H&N pistol pellets fall around 7.5gr. All of their rifle pellets are 8.18 grains. I am going to shoot with RWS rifle pellets in my Kite tomorrow and see what the results are. I'd still like to know if manufacturer weights relate to wadcutter design and how so if they do. To be continued.................unless the FTC commences action in the morning for improper/misleading labeling. :-)

Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. One reason that happened is that I have never met an experienced AP shooter who paid any attention to whether the pellets are marked "rifle" or "pistol". Anyway, if you actually weighed some of the pellets you mentioned, you would find that the indicated weights are approximate, and different batches will vary by several tenths of a grain. So your H&N lights might actually weigh 7.2gr (as some of mine do), and your RWS lights might actually weigh 7.1gr. Also, if you chronograph pellets in the same weight range, you will find that lighter is not always faster. Bottom line, nominal weights are just that - nominal - and are of no concern unless you're shooting a very low-powered AP. In any case, I suspect that the variation between manufacturers in nominal weights might simply be an artifact of different "translations" of .50g and .53g (NOT 53 grams) into grains.

Just shot some with RWS Meister rifle and my groupings were a bit better, but that is possible also to many other factors. Will try them for a week or so and see what happens. I did see the the gram mis-statement but was too lazy yesterday to edit. Head cold city here today. Sorry.
Good shooting,
B.

I must admit to being something of a farkle fan.
Just a little. I will post a photo of my Morini 162 when I can.
I like it !

Dr.

Dr. Lee, you're a sick man!

Rover, sorry you don't get a prize for figuring that out. You weren't the first !
I'll take it as a compliment anyway !

Dr.

Brian Lafferty wrote:Pellet weights for pistol clearly vary by manufacturer. For example
Vogel 8.1gr
RWS 7.0gr
H&N 7.5gr

Is there a real or theoretical reason for this? Will some brands of air pistol prefer different weights. Just wondering......I miss regardless of the weight.
Good shooting,
Brian

Hi Brian, in addition to the excellent responses to your original question; I

have something else for you to concern yourself with. That would be the differing

head sizes available from the many pellet manufacturers. Which head size

would you choose along with the pellet weight that you select?

Tony