TargetTalk

Anyone has PDFs for the ISSF (UIT) Rulebook pre-2001 (1997, and before)? Also I am looking for a 2001 pdf, mine is incomplete. German ones and other languages are OK.

I've got pdfs of the individual sections for all 4 printings of the 2001 rules.

pm me your email address and details of which ones you want.

Alternatively you can download the 4th printing files from here.

I can't remember them doing pdfs of earlier versions.

The previous version is 1997..that would be UIT then. But they do revision, so maybe there is a revision of the 1997 pdf floating around somewhere.

I have the same incomplete 2001 as the one link you gave me. Missing chapter 1 and 2. Help?

I am clearly a dimwit. I understand why somebody might keep a many years out of date rule book, after all everybody has some packrat tendencies. But I can't get why anybody would seek one out.

Rover, any insights?

If you want to ask this, then ask me.

I am interested in the history of the sport, its evolution. Hence I have old rule books and other related materials, such as an original Haemmerli 33 workshop manual, something that, to my belief, nobody has in this country. It is original because it is all hand typed in German, and pictures were hand drawn. They are all "original", if you ever have the luck to encounter one and have the connection to obtain it. Not even Mr. Marent has one.

william wrote:I am clearly a dimwit. I understand why somebody might keep a many years out of date rule book, after all everybody has some packrat tendencies. But I can't get why anybody would seek one out.

It's called research.

conradin wrote:I have the same incomplete 2001 as the one link you gave me. Missing chapter 1 and 2. Help?

Have you tried actually opening the files instead of just looking at the names and assuming?

With the file names they used at the time I think you'll find that "01" was the cover and "02" was the initial index.

I believe that everything else, including sections 1 & 2, is there.

Out of interest, you have all of these rule books but obviously don't read them; why? I suggested weeks ago that you should read sections 6 & 8 but only yesterday you said that you hadn't know about range lighting. It's hardly hidden away is it.

Careful now David. Conradin has stated that he's been using the internet 'since the keyboard was the screen and the printer was the keyboard' or something like that. His internet-fu must be legendary, therefore so must his ability to use the Find feature in a PDF viewer. I suspect his repeatedly initiating new threads to ask about rulebook elements is based more in a desire to be socially outgoing than in any real need for information.

03-25. 03 starts at Chapter 1 but does not have the cover, preface and content index; so 01 and 02 are missing. Most likely it was not scanned because people don't think it is important.

Out of interest, you have all of these rule books but obviously don't read them; why? I suggested weeks ago that you should read sections 6 & 8 but only yesterday you said that you hadn't know about range lighting. It's hardly hidden away is it.

The local competition basically does not follow the rules. Hence a PTO AP outdoors, or a state championship in FP using reduce target for 25M.

Gerard wrote: I suspect his repeatedly initiating new threads to ask about rulebook elements is based more in a desire to be socially outgoing than in any real need for information.

No. I am trying to find an older version to see if there is a definition of "light, neutral color", either in English or German. If there has never been a definition, then it would be interesting to see the rulebook of the year BEFORE that has no mention of it, and then the rulebook of the year after which first mention it.

Then you try to search on youtube or other media, and figure out what is "before" and what is "after". Then you can figure out what is the ideal, commonly used, color background.

conradin wrote:

Out of interest, you have all of these rule books but obviously don't read them; why? I suggested weeks ago that you should read sections 6 & 8 but only yesterday you said that you hadn't know about range lighting. It's hardly hidden away is it.

The local competition basically does not follow the rules. Hence a PTO AP outdoors, or a state championship in FP using reduce target for 25M.

There is no reason why your home range shouldn't follow the rules, but as you've found out, you need to adapt to other ranges over which you have no control. You have 2 simple choices for them I'm afraid; shoot on them or don't shoot on them.

If you really think that the cover and index for the 2001 rules is important to you then pm me your email address and I'll scan them for you when I get home.

I am just thankful that we have more than one club here that hold PTO and state competition, even though if they are not 100% kosher about the rules. Personally it is either enter the tournament, or not shoot at any tournaments at all. Just my choice. But I do want to gradually learn about what is "kosher" for the sake of education and for the future. At least if by chance a new place opened and host an tournament that is totally ISSF complied, I know the rules and will have nobody to blame but myself if I am not prepared.

The local competition basically does not follow the rules. Hence a PTO AP outdoors, or a state championship in FP using reduce target for 25M.

I am just thankful that we have more than one club here that hold PTO and state competition, even though if they are not 100% kosher about the rules. Personally it is either enter the tournament, or not shoot at any tournaments at all. Just my choice. But I do want to gradually learn about what is "kosher" for the sake of education and for the future. At least if by chance a new place opened and host an tournament that is totally ISSF complied, I know the rules and will have nobody to blame but myself if I am not prepared.

Vincent,

I read your comments and am puzzled by what you are referring to when you say the local matches aren't "kosher". Can you please elaborate on this topic? As one of sevral local match directors, I always like to hear from the competitors/shooters their comments, ideas, suggestions, and criticism about our matches and how to improve on them. Please don't be shy about letting me know where we are not following the rules or where you think improvement is needed.

I will be happy to pass along your comments to the other local match directors, volunteeers, and club officers as we are always working to improve the matches.

-Steve

I am the Match Director for several matches at my club. Part of the preparation for a match is to review the current rules, and to have a copy of the rules for reference during the match.

If a question arises the book is handy, and if we can't resolve a disagreement, there is a procedure for resolving disputes. I have erred in the past and surely will again. Genuine disagreements don't offend me.

What I do find offensive is if you think a rule is not being followed, you choose not to bring it to the attention of the Match Director or Referee, and then complain after the fact. You've denied the match officials the opportunity to correct an error or correct your misunderstanding. To complain after the fact does little more than impugn the integrity of the people running the match and sours the experience for everyone.

conradin wrote:03-25. 03 starts at Chapter 1 but does not have the cover, preface and content index; so 01 and 02 are missing. Most likely it was not scanned because people don't think it is important.

Out of interest, you have all of these rule books but obviously don't read them; why? I suggested weeks ago that you should read sections 6 & 8 but only yesterday you said that you hadn't know about range lighting. It's hardly hidden away is it.

The local competition basically does not follow the rules. Hence a PTO AP outdoors, or a state championship in FP using reduce target for 25M.

Can you clarify this statement? The 2013 USAS Rules provide for a reduced target to be used in 25 yard Free Pistol events. See page 27 of the General Technical Rules.

Vincent, if you're concerned about what is or isn't "kosher," try here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm

Everything you'll need to know although there is some ambiguity.

In case you really need somebody to define "light" and "neutral" for you, there is plenty of information out there about 18% gray cards. They are about the best working definition of those words.

conradin wrote:No. I am trying to find an older version to see if there is a definition of "light, neutral color", either in English or German.

The first time it was "...light even neutral color..." was in the 2001 1st printing.

Before then, going back at least to 1993 (and probably longer), it was "...medium, neutral color...".

You won't find any further detailed description.

Don't bother checking the German (or other language) versions; if there is a difference then the English language version prevails.

I have attached the pages you want from the 2001 rules; enjoy.

GOVTMODEL wrote: What I do find offensive is if you think a rule is not being followed, you choose not to bring it to the attention of the Match Director or Referee, and then complain after the fact. You've denied the match officials the opportunity to correct an error or correct your misunderstanding. To complain after the fact does little more than impugn the integrity of the people running the match and sours the experience for everyone.

Sorry You probably have mistaken my post. I was not complaining at all. I am just pointing out some facts, that may or may not be 100% "kosher". If you read the posts, you will realize as I said I was just thankful that there are clubs in my area that hold tournaments, period.

Realistically we in the Bay area do not have the resource to make things 100% comply to ISSF. We are OK, IIRC, comply with USAS. What David suggested is impossible, to comply with ISSF, as clubs do not have resources to do so.

GOVTMODEL wrote:

conradin wrote:03-25. 03 starts at Chapter 1 but does not have the cover, preface and content index; so 01 and 02 are missing. Most likely it was not scanned because people don't think it is important.

Out of interest, you have all of these rule books but obviously don't read them; why? I suggested weeks ago that you should read sections 6 & 8 but only yesterday you said that you hadn't know about range lighting. It's hardly hidden away is it.

The local competition basically does not follow the rules. Hence a PTO AP outdoors, or a state championship in FP using reduce target for 25M.

Can you clarify this statement? The 2013 USAS Rules provide for a reduced target to be used in 25 yard Free Pistol events. See page 27 of the General Technical Rules.

Again this is about ISSF, as I want to learn about ISSF rules more extensively, such as its evolution. The previous post I stated that local competition did not follow ISSF rules 100%. This has nothing to do with USAS. A lot of people here are not from the USA, they do not understand our rules; in some countries, as you may know, will only build ranges strictly according to ISSF.

An example of USAS that I find it very positive is that women can compete in free pistol events, as the USAS allow each organization to declare an event "open" to encourage participation.

conradin wrote:

GOVTMODEL wrote:

conradin wrote:03-25. 03 starts at Chapter 1 but does not have the cover, preface and content index; so 01 and 02 are missing. Most likely it was not scanned because people don't think it is important.

Out of interest, you have all of these rule books but obviously don't read them; why? I suggested weeks ago that you should read sections 6 & 8 but only yesterday you said that you hadn't know about range lighting. It's hardly hidden away is it.

The local competition basically does not follow the rules. Hence a PTO AP outdoors, or a state championship in FP using reduce target for 25M.

Can you clarify this statement? The 2013 USAS Rules provide for a reduced target to be used in 25 yard Free Pistol events. See page 27 of the General Technical Rules.

Again this is about ISSF, as I want to learn about ISSF rules more extensively, such as its evolution. The previous post I stated that local competition did not follow ISSF rules 100%. This has nothing to do with USAS. A lot of people here are not from the USA, they do not understand our rules; in some countries, as you may know, will only build ranges strictly according to ISSF.

An example of USAS that I find it very positive is that women can compete in free pistol events.

A tournament needs to conform to the rules of the sanctioning body, be it USAS, NRA, or IPSC. Your statement that "The local competition basically does not follow the rules" is misleading.