TargetTalk

Ok so I have a question...

I have been reading through and seen that a lot of people seem displeased with the 10x rifle and I know some people personally who is displeased with it too.

What kind of interest would be out there for an American made competition rifle that could and would not just compete with Anschutz, but beat it in quality, and accuracy from the factory?


Thanks for you're input!

Thomas

Thomas,

Is there more than one thread about the 10x rifle? There was the initial: "What is it all about thread" but contained no direct user feedback. Then there was the review that got removed and ultimately re-added. I couldn't find multiple parties reporting issues. Oddly, I can't seem to find any reviews, feedback or other "range reports" on this rifle on this forum or ANY forum related to smallbore.

anschutz1913_ss wrote:... compete with Anschutz, but beat it in quality, and accuracy from the factory?

Need to add "equivalent price point".
If it's a $8K rifle it's probably a no-go

I'd add that it would need to be in the 3K or less range. It would also need to have parts and repairs that are available without months of wait times.

Roy

I'd add that it would need to be in the 3K or less range. It would also need to have parts and repairs that are available without months of wait times.

Roy

Not sure on the price point part of the question but as far as quality is concerned you are going to be on a hiding to nothing to start a totally new rifle from a completely new platform.The Swiss have the quality well and truly sorted hands down.Having said that they do use American barrels so at least part of the rifle is homegrown.

Key factors for me are #1 short action (as short as a Uptagrafft or Win 52) #2 it has to have a great trigger I would recommend just using a Anschutz 5018 you really can't get any better (at lest that I know of) #3 need to offer it in a 3P stock and a prone stock #4 it has to have 11mm dovetail I would also not sell it with sights let people chose what sights they want

Just my 2 cents
Nathan

I'd like to see accomplished shooters compare Anschutz (and others) with a newcomer like Volquartsen.

Shooting sports are like many other hobbies and vocations. A certain tool or set of tools will become generally regarded as the best; ala Anschutz and Pardini. As we progress in our chosen vocation or avocation we strive to own and use those tools to become competitive on a national or world class level. It's a natural thing.

I think Volquartsen's best pistols and their match rimfire rifle, the Inferno, could be competitive with "the best". In fact, I've searched for comparisons on and off for weeks with no results. I'd really like to see a "shootout".

I'm sure VC is not the only "newcomer" making world class shooters either.

mparker wrote:I'd like to see accomplished shooters compare Anschutz (and others) with a newcomer like Volquartsen.

Shooting sports are like many other hobbies and vocations. A certain tool or set of tools will become generally regarded as the best; ala Anschutz and Pardini. As we progress in our chosen vocation or avocation we strive to own and use those tools to become competitive on a national or world class level. It's a natural thing.

I think Volquartsen's best pistols and their match rimfire rifle, the Inferno, could be competitive with "the best". In fact, I've searched for comparisons on and off for weeks with no results. I'd really like to see a "shootout".

I'm sure VC is not the only "newcomer" making world class shooters either.

You do realise this is a forum for prone and 3-P shooting? THe VQ is not remotely suitable for these disciplines. One it's an autoloader, and ISSF (and some non-US domestic) rules prohibit magazine fed rifles. Secondly the stock is designed for bench shooting. Thirdly there is no provision for aperture sights.

Tim S wrote:

mparker wrote:I'd like to see accomplished shooters compare Anschutz (and others) with a newcomer like Volquartsen.

Shooting sports are like many other hobbies and vocations. A certain tool or set of tools will become generally regarded as the best; ala Anschutz and Pardini. As we progress in our chosen vocation or avocation we strive to own and use those tools to become competitive on a national or world class level. It's a natural thing.

I think Volquartsen's best pistols and their match rimfire rifle, the Inferno, could be competitive with "the best". In fact, I've searched for comparisons on and off for weeks with no results. I'd really like to see a "shootout".

I'm sure VC is not the only "newcomer" making world class shooters either.

You do realise this is a forum for prone and 3-P shooting? THe VQ is not remotely suitable for these disciplines. One it's an autoloader, and ISSF (and some non-US domestic) rules prohibit magazine fed rifles. Secondly the stock is designed for bench shooting. Thirdly there is no provision for aperture sights.

Yes, I did forget where I was. Thanks Tim.

my son shot with the late Dave Cramer,who shot a 10 x at the end of his career and had no complaints.My son has had his for 13 months nowand has seen a marked impovement in his scores,and has no complaints with trigger,barrel,or action.that being said he does have issues with the but plate,and sights that they offer,wich he returned.But the biggest issue is with customer service they dont answer the phone or return emails or phone calls

Ican not complain about how my 10-X is shooting, but I had only ordered the action. It has a Benchmark barrel 1-16.5 twist .
Howard

I shot with Dave Cramer for years and considered him a very close friend of mine, and yes his 10-X rifle was a great gun, I am the director of Frazier-Simplex JR Club (Formerly Cramer's position) and several of our juniors shoot the 10-X rifle. Every one of them has some serious quality issues. I have one right now that I will be trying to fix for a kid and there is about 6-7 issues.

- The trigger rubs the trigger guard and sometimes won't let it stay cocked when closing the bolt.

- The action does not seat in the stock properly and the action and barrel move and twist in the stock with very little effort.

- The crown machining is very poor.

- The stock is cut out for a recoil lug but there is no recoil lug present.

- The safety of the trigger rubs the stock and trigger guard.

- The rear action screw bottoms out on the bolt and will not allow the bolt to slide.

- The firing pin does not hit the rim but rather closer to the center of the case causing this particular rifle to have misfires a lot.

Now I'm not trying to trash the gentlemen making these, but these are quality issues that have arisen on more than one rifle in my club.

And this is why I decided to post this poll and ask everyone on here what they thought.

Thanks!

anschutz1913_ss wrote:Every one of them has some serious quality issues.

The cost of the gun is really minor when teaching intermediate & advanced level junior shooters.
We coaches and shooters are not putting rounds downrange every day as some of the National Team elite.

I know in my program we have 2 air rifle days and only 1 smallbore rifle day per week. And even then, especially this time of year, we have competitions that "cut into" training time.

If you do not have a reliable, pretty accurate rifle, I think you are really hurting your shooters ... there is simply not enough time to deal with the quality issues you note. The price you pay for the quality/reliability of the rifle is a huge deal.

Our more advanced shooters have their own personal rifles ... primarily Anschutz.
Our intermediate/beginners use the CM-2s and while they must be maintained (a bit of grease on the bolt is the most common) I'm happy with these relatively inexpensive ($700 with all our mods) rifles. A few of our J3-J2 shooters have taken these to the JOs and fired very respectable scores (560's). Yeah, they are kinda You-gly, but they are rugged.

The junior shooters simply don't have the time to mess around with unreliable rifles that have those types of quality issues.

Personally, I would like to see two different kinds of American rifles for competition. It goes without saying that it would be great to have a rifle that could compete with an Anschutz, Feinwerkbau, Walter, Bleiker, and Grunig. It would be a great sense of American pride. However, although I would definitely consider trying one, it is difficult to argue against the track record of Anschutz, for instance. Reliability and trust are enormous factors. However, I would like to see an American rifle that would be great for rifle clubs, something within the 1000 dollar range. Many people have mentioned the CM2 Russian rifle, this is a great beginner rifle. The 1903 Anschutz is a step up but still not a 54 action, and around 1400 dollars. So, I think an accurate American rifle that could be priced somewhere between an Anschutz 1903 and the Russian rifle and the savage rifles. However, I feel that it would need to have an adjustable cheekpiece, and a basic hook buttplate that moves up and down and perhaps adjusts for length for bigger shooters. Perhaps a little ambitious for a rifle, as we definitely do not want to trade accuracy for more adjustments. But a basic rifle that doesn't even have a rail and buttplate would be out of the question. And of course it needs to be accurate and have a good light trigger. Older 14 series and old Anschutz achievers may not be around for ever. I think it would be great if there was an American made rifle available for clubs to invest in for their shooters until they move on to an Anschutz or equivalent.

In terms of youth starters, I know Roy has been dabbling with a CZ-452 in a 3-Position Stock
viewtopic.php?t=38259&highlight=
(How's that thing shoot Roy? & what kind of cost gets sunk into one of those?)

Don't know if anyone is playing with a Savage action in a 3-P stock.

Here in the US parents and their kids seem to be enamored with the 10/22s and other semi-autos & repeaters ... single shots, not so much. I kinda just roll my eyes when folks show up to a 3-P shoot and they are dumbfounded when we tell them they can only load & shoot 1 round at a time.

There is no doubt that here in the US, the capacity for excellence in our manufacturing businesses is there ... I'm not convinced they can achieve that same excellence as firms such as Anschutz, Walther, etc. at the same price point.

I think someone making 3p stocks for the Savages could sell quite a number of them. A company called Eastern Sierra Armory makes biathlon stocks for the MkIIs (about $600). If they saw a good market for them, they could be convinced to make a 3p stock. I would think the market would be larger than the biathlon market. If they could make it simple enough to keep the price point down they could sell quite a few. One of the people in the company commented in the biathlon section on targettalk. Sent them an Email.

There are some really great custom actions out there that the rimfire bench rest community uses. They might not have the drop in loading feature of Anschutz and other position guns. The US has several great barrel makers so there is no shortage of barrels. The BR guys pretty much build their own stocks....... why can't someone take a BR barreled action and build or inlet a position stock??

Cheseboro Rifles has a Savage MK II in a 3 position stock for $700 (new). No mention of what the stock is, who makes it, etc but it looks like it's got more features then the basic stock from Savage.

Regarding the 'custom 3 position CZ' as someone who owns a CZ 452 and did a little web research about the setup I can throw out some rough MSRP values. One thing to consider is that CZ has discontinued the CZ 452 Varmit favor of the 455. Although not a bad thing, as Lilja makes barrels for only the 455 but PDC does not list the 455 when they mention the custom stock (that the rifle is fitted in).

But taking the rifle for what it is, here is a ball park #

CZ 452 Varmit - $448
PDC Stock - $450 (based on options it can exceed $500)
Butt plate - $250-$400
Sight Set - $100-$450

So low end estimate, about $1250. High end estimate about $1750. That's if you went MSRP on the items.

I don't think it likely there will be a US mass-produced competitive smallbore rifle because of lack of sufficient demand to support producing a rifle. There are a number of companies making very good AR 15 based rifles for NRA high power competition such as White Oak Precision and Compass Lake. I think they are getting lots of business.

Here is a website address for a company, Long Rifles, in South Dakato that says it builds 3P smallbore rifles. http://www.longriflesinc.com/rifles[/img][/url]

Well, I see the link does not work. You can just google Long Rifles. This would be for a custom made rifle, not mass produced. I am guessing it would cost a lot. It does look like he builds some nice competition rifles using components manufactured by others.