TargetTalk

When the frame on my old HS Victor started cracking in the third location a couple of years ago, I bought a new 41. I mounted an Ultradot sight and Fung grips, and made it my bullseye gun.

I have generally been happy with it, but it has one quirk that is driving me crazy. More often than not, the first round of slow fire goes in the five-ring at 1:00, and the hole is noticeably elongated, indicating that the bullet is tipping. This is with CCI SV ammo, and occurs even though I break the shot in the black. It only occurs with the first shot. After that, everything is normal. For a while, I tried to convince myself that I was causing it by flinching, but I don't think even I can flinch enough to cause keyholing, and I almost certainly flinch more than once.

I haven't yet designed an experiment to see if cleaning, lubrication, disassembly/reassembly, or the way I hold my mouth has any effect on this problem. I thought I would ask around if anyone else had one that does this.

I once heard of a similar thing. It was a long time ago and I don't recall the details...something about the slide not going the same into battery each time (?).

Anyhow, a trip back to S&W cured the problem.

I think I'd try the gun off sandbags before sending it back, though. Also try pulling the slide all the way to the rear and releasing it to slam home. The keyhole is really weird.

I have one barrel that seems to be prone to making elongated holes, they are often better visible on white part of a target as they are often accompanied by lead skid marks next to a hole. My other barrel does not do that.

It is interesting what you wrote about the first shot. My 41 does it too, consistently on the first shot, though rather towards 3 o'clock. I tended to blame my "cold" grip, however, rather than some mechanical problem.

I have a 1970's vintage (A600XXX SN) 41, and it definitely does NOT do this, with any of the three barrels I have (Original 7", S&W 5.5" and Clark 6.5"). There's something wrong.

fourarmed;

Welcome to the forum.
Questions:
Are you saying that the first round from every magazine does this ?
Are you saying that only the first round of the match does this, (cause we start with slow fire) ?
How many rounds do you load for slow fire,(cause we only load five rounds for sustained fire per string) ?

Clarence

My 41 has a tendency to throw a shot wide on occasion and it drives me nuts. It doesn't happen on a regular basis or at least not on a certain round in the magazine. In a 30 shot gallery course I will get at least one shot that is outside the black and that's not where the red dot was when the shot broke. My 41 is only 5 years old and I'm going to blame it on the quality workmanship or lack of with the newer S&W 41's. For a long time I thought it was me flinching but when I shoot my HS with a LSP barrel EVERY shot is where it was called. So I have eliminated the ammo too because I use that same CCI SV for both.

That being said, as my 41 gets a higher shot count the wide shots are getting fewer and fewer. I'm wondering if it's that the barrel is finally starting to break in/smooth out that's causing fewer flyers.

Kirmdog

I had a 41 5,5" barrel relined by Alex Hamilton. Before it would keyhole CCI SV at 50'. I scrubbed and polished the bore and still it tumbled CCI the worst. Other ammos tumbled and tipped different amounts. Eley the least.

This is 50' indoor NM competition. I use two magazines alternately in all three stages. I drop the slide by pulling it sharply to the rear and releasing it with the trigger held back. The only time I see this occur is the first shot of the first string of slow fire. I do not distinguish between the two magazines, so it could be related, but I don't see the effect during the sustained fire stages.

I have cleaned the bore only with a Bore-Snake until now. Last night I pulled the B-S through, then cleaned with a rod, brush, and patches. That produced a fair amount of fouling. I will try doing that before each league night, and see if fouling could be the problem.

Sounds to me like it is the cleaning that is the problem. If you run the bore snake through the barrel after every league night then the first shot of the first string of slow fire is with a clean barrel. The first shot in slow fire is conditioning the barrel for the rest of the match. I would not clean the barrel and see what it does or if you just have to clean it at least shoot a couple of fowling shots to get the barrel conditioned.

I never clean the barrel of my 41. I have a 6" Aikman barrel built from a Mcgowan micro groove ( or micro bore?) blank. These barrels were guaranteed to shoot 1/2" groups at 50yds. At the start of the indoor bullseye season this year I cleaned the gun up and scrubed the chamber and decided to pull 1 patch through the bore in case some crud from scrubing the chamber was in the bore. First shot of slow fire I called good, real good, like touching the 10 inside the 10 ring good. Scoped it and it was a 6 at 12 o'clock. ??? (and yes the gun was sighted in for 50') Shot the next shot, called it good. 8 at 12 o'clock. Called the next 8 good and all were 10's. To me this told me that the barrel didn't like to shoot clean. Not that it was really that clean since I only pulled 1 patch through it.

I'm not saying that you don't have to clean your 41. I brush the chamber before every match/ league night. Wipe the breach face clean of lube and crud. Brush the bolt face and scrape the hardened crud out of the recess of the bolt face with a tiny screwdriver. Wipe the crown with a solvent soaked patch and keep the mags clean.

You are not going to hurt your barrel by not pulling a bore snake through it after every 30 rounds fired. I have between 1500-2000 rounds through mine since that 1 patch was pulled through and have had no issues since.

Just my thought, Scott

A 7 inch barrel 41 was the first gun I shot in bullseye. I only shot CCI SV and I didn't notice any consistancy in wide shots - just the ones I assumed I pulled occasionaly. I never saw keyholes even at 50 yds.

I wonder if there's something about how the first round is feeding out of the magazine. Could the bullet be shaving on the edge of the chamber or magazine?

You might extract a few of the first rounds fed from the magazine to inspect the bullet.

Jerry Keefer doesn't think highly of Smith and Wesson 41 barrels and found relining with Lothar Walther blanks to be a huge improvement for a 41.

I don't know the reason or the solution, but I can tell you that I'm experiencing the exact same problem. I have had my Model 41 for nearly 30 years, but this fall I decided to replace my untapped 7" barrel with a 5.5" in S&W barrel so that I could install a red-dot. I didn't notice the problem during fall league, but for the last four weeks, the first shot of the night has hit in the 5 or 6 ring @ 12:00, and is keyholed. For the rest of the night it shoots normally, at point of aim and clean holes. I shoot CCI-SV and use three different clips.

I've been blaming it on the gun being cold. It's stored at about 50 degrees, but that may have nothing to do with it. The barrel was cleaned once, after about 250 rounds and just before beginning the winter league, and before I started having this problem. I haven't tried cleaning it again yet. I'm still experimenting to see if I can understand the problem.

Have you proven this by shooting off a rest? unless you have bad ammo, cci travailing at 1080fps could not tip at 50 feet, unless your rifling is worn out, or filled with dirt,residue or lead and not spinning the bullet. I would do a thorough cleaning with a good lead remover, then bench rest test it.

While chatting with a couple of guys at the MidWinter Pistol match today, a similar situation came up.

The shooter said that while cleaning the bore with a wire brush after some tipped hits, a large piece of lead came out of the bore. That fixed the problem.

Just sayin'.

We were snowed out this week, but I had no keyholes last week after a thorough cleaning, nor during a practice night.

My problem with the first shot keyholing at 12:00 also seemed to disappear after a scrub with the brush and Hoppe's #9. I can't explain why a fouled barrel would only affect the first shot of the night, but if it happens again, I'll just clean the barrel and move on.

fourarmed wrote:When the frame on my old HS Victor started cracking in the third location a couple of years ago, I bought a new 41. I mounted an Ultradot sight and Fung grips, and made it my bullseye gun.

I have generally been happy with it, but it has one quirk that is driving me crazy. More often than not, the first round of slow fire goes in the five-ring at 1:00, and the hole is noticeably elongated, indicating that the bullet is tipping. This is with CCI SV ammo, and occurs even though I break the shot in the black. It only occurs with the first shot. After that, everything is normal. For a while, I tried to convince myself that I was causing it by flinching, but I don't think even I can flinch enough to cause keyholing, and I almost certainly flinch more than once.

I haven't yet designed an experiment to see if cleaning, lubrication, disassembly/reassembly, or the way I hold my mouth has any effect on this problem. I thought I would ask around if anyone else had one that does this.

Hmmmm...this sounds familiar. You still fighting with this one Bob? It sure would be nice if it turns out to be as simple as a cleaning issue.