TargetTalk

I have not owned an olympic free pistol, but am looking at a Hammerli 150 or a 162. I don't know the pros/cons of an electronic trigger. I have a Hammerli 208S that I use for Bullseye and love it.

Any opinions would be appreciated on the differences in these guns. Also, if you know approximate price range for LNIB please let me know. I have my eye on a couple of these pistols. Thank you.

I've owned both and found the rake on the 150 too severe for me. I love my 162, however, many think think it is too muzzle heavy. I have found it to settle the pistol. If you don't do a lot of shooting or have weaker muscles, another pistol would be better. There is no question they shoot very well! The rake on the 162 is adjustable.

Sir,
If the two were of near-identical physical conditions, I would recommend taking the slight disadvantage of a less finger-comfort-adjustable 150 over the 162, if you have long fingers and/or get to try the reach. That said, do please be aware that the early 150s came with horrendous rounded, non-directional grips.
I have had the unpleasant experience of trying to help a friend to get his 162's failed electronics to work again. Hammerli/Walther declined giving factory repairs. Larry's Guns asks for $700 to change it into a 160(mechanical trigger). My friend's 162 is currently labelled, a wall hanger.
As a shooter, the TOZ 35/35M is a decent alternative, even though neither its finish, nor its test target, may usually be as attractive as that of/from a Hammerli.
Should you insist on a Hammerli, a 160/160 Special is the way to go.
Paul Ha.

Easy, don't get either. Get a top 35

Muffo wrote:Easy, don't get either. Get a top 35

I assume you mean TOZ 35? I know they are less $$, but any other reason why the TOZ? Thanks.

There are numerous threads on this forum regarding the relative merits of various free pistols which are available to you through the Forum search function, including an excellent review of the Pardini here: /viewtopic.php?t=12825&highlight=first+ ... ree+pistol

Also, you may want to have a look at the page on the Pilkguns site which has an overview of the most commonly available pistols:
http://www.pilkguns.com/c17.shtml

I happen to shoot a TOZ 35M; it is my first FP and it is solid and forgiving with a most amazing trigger. Perhaps its biggest downside is the unavailability of parts, but that is unfortunately common among FP's that are not of the latest manufacture. At least there are enough TOZ owners modding their guns that is is not too difficult to get information about substitute springs, odd parts and home-made upgrades.

Roger

lakesidemn wrote:

Muffo wrote:Easy, don't get either. Get a top 35

I assume you mean TOZ 35? I know they are less $$, but any other reason why the TOZ? Thanks.

Simply because the Toz is an all around better design that either Hammerli 150 or 162. For something that was designed 40 odd years ago to still be used at Olympic level should tell you that it is a "freak". No other target pistol has stood the test of time like the Toz. There were 2 or 3 in the final at the London Olympics.

The parts issue isn't one to worry about. The firing pin spring can get tired, but it's just a coil spring and you just need to find one that's the right diameter and length. No other parts are really known to fail but any that do can be remade by any competent gunsmith should they be needed. This can't be said for an electronic trigger that is no longer supprted by the factory.

The Hammerli 150 has the previously mentioned highly raked grip and a trigger that has a reputation of going out of adjustment. The 162 is heavy (nose heavy because the batteries are up front) and if the electronics fail, you have a paperweight!.

If I was forced to choose between a Hammerli 150 and 162, I'd take the 150, throw the factory grip away and make a custom one.

lakesidemn wrote:

Muffo wrote:Easy, don't get either. Get a top 35

I assume you mean TOZ 35? I know they are less $$, but any other reason why the TOZ? Thanks.

Oops stupid phone. Simply put the toz is just plain better from a purely shooting point. The hammerlis were made better and much more precise. The tozs were made rough and not finished very well but they shoot better. They are very forgiving and that's what really counts. Every top high end free pistol will shoot 10s when you do everything right so it's what happens when you make a mistake that counts. If you look at any high level events the main 2 pistols that are shot are morinis and tozs they probably make up 85 percent of the pistols from what I have seen then you get a small number of other pistols that make up the numbers. The toz has withstood the test of time and has been shot at the highest level for a long time and as far as I know it still holds the world record. If you have plenty of money buy a morini because it is current model and easy to get parts for if not buy a toz35 preferably as old as you can get. If you want something to look nice in the safe then buy a hammerli

There are 2 versions of the Hammerli 150 trigger, the third, most recent one is very good.

The rake is a question of wrist: if your can bend your wrist down enough for the rake, it is OK for you (roughly said, people shooting AP are used to a raked grip, people shooting big bore aren't, compared to the 208S, the rake of the 150 is really extreme).

I wouldn't buy the 162 because of its electronic trigger: fragile, no spare parts, weight and no benefit of the electronic trigger. The mechanical trigger 160 is a very good choice probably the best Hammerli FP, you can convert the 162 to mechanical trigger but it is expensive (now 700USD seems really a lot).

There are often 160 for sale, if you like Hammerli, I would wait for a 160.

About the TOZ 35, well, it is derived from an old Hammerli design and is indeed still used, even at the highest level. But almost all TOZ used at high level are heavily modified/improved, these improvements are not easy to do and are quite expensive (you at least need a good grip, this is easy to replace but cost around 300USD...). Make a search on the forum, there is a very long thread about TOZ improvements.

jipe wrote:About the TOZ 35, well, it is derived from an old Hammerli design...

That's oftens said, but not really true. They have a falling block and loading lever that's similar, but the heart of a free pistol is the trigger and firing mechanism and there is no way the trigger and firing mechanism in the Toz is a copy of the Hammerli 10X series pistols.

I can't understand how a question to compare two specific Hammerli models turns into a history of a clunky TOZ.

Historical note: The falling block design is derived from the Martini-Henry action from about 1870 or so. The TOZ trigger is different from the Hammerli.

As far as "forgiveness", the Pilkington HitchHikers Guide has this:

The Toz 35 is truly a remarkable pistol. For thirty years it has dominated the event, and unless somebody produces something special, there is no reason to suppose it won't continue to do so for some time yet. Basically it’s a Russian version of an early Hammerli. Nothing is particularly well made, machining is fair but not great and the factory grips are quite uncomfortable (the best add-on you can buy for this gun is a set of Morini grips). But the trigger, when set up right, is exceptionally consistent and the overall balance and feel contribute to it being a “forgiving” gun. Sight radius is not as long as some, and maybe this adds to the comfort level. Typically a good shooter with a Toz may not shoot as many tens as a similar shooter with a Hammerli, Pardini or Morini. It seems that the poor shots don't punish so badly, it’s far easier to shoot an eight (or worse) with the other pistols.

There was a thread recently on the FP's used at the Olympics and IIRC there were three "TOZ 35" in the top ten. I don't know if they were 35's or 35 M but there wasn't much difference between them originally and pistols at that level of competition are fairly customized anyway.

I have shot at least 8,000 rounds through my TOZ 35M since I started about 18 months ago (not much for a competitor but not bad for an amateur, I think) and the only repair was replacing the firing pin spring once. It is a solid gun to use to learn a sport which has enough challenges without worrying about fussy equipment.

With that said, I would love to have a pretty FP with an Italian name. However, my TOZ with its stolid Soviet styling cost less than half of one of those babies and the leftover bread bought quite a few bullets.

But if the OP is dead set on getting a Hammerli, the best way to get an idea of pricing is cruise the net. Gunbroker.com generally has the most realistic prices (IMHO); the dealers on GunsAmerica.com tend to be high. Hammerli's have also come up from time to time on TargetTalk and there is a FP forum on Yahoo that may have some offers on record.

Roger

Freepistol wrote:I can't understand how a question to compare two specific Hammerli models turns into a history of a clunky TOZ.

I do. People dont want to see the op doing himself an injustice by buying a Hammerli :)

Somebody (if willing to do the OP a valuable service) should ask him what hand size he is.

If he is on the small side, or has short fingers and/or meaty hand (the last two are my case) he should better avoid the TOZ, however good and forgiving a pistol it is.

I shot for years with a MU-55-1, and had no trouble whatsoever with trigger reach. Quit shooting and sold (regrettably) my pistol, and recently (two years ago) returned to the sport.

The buyer of my MU wouldn't part with it (understantably) and had to buy a TOZ-35-M in fine condition for a song. Well, I couldn´t shoot it confortably in spite of almost obliterating the right grip wood to the metal, and then grinding the metal itself!! The TOZ is meant for longer hands, so I sold it and got me a equally fine Hammerli 150 with an untouched Morini grip just my size, and had no more trouble.

So, in spite of all its advantages (price, ergonomy, forgiveness of errand shots, robustness) I'd caution the OP on this matter.

Any FP you can't grip confortably (and uniformly) during a whole match will kill you and your aspirations pretty quickly!!!

Going back to the original post, you are likely to be happy with either. Since you have a 208s and really like it, I take it you are happy with Hammerli quality. I don't know why some TOZ shooters feel the need to hijack every free pistol posting that mentions anything else. They are nice for what they are, but not for everybody. (BTW, according to numerous sources Melentiev used a MC-55 not a Toz35 for his world record score of 581 in 1980.)
Since you are a bullseye shooter, I'm also assuming you're a reasonably experienced and proficient shooter. So, you should be able to determine if either the 150 or 162 (or both!) feels like they handle well. In my opinion, they both have good ergonomics that make them feel much lighter than they actually weigh.
In regard to the 162, I haven't seen any problems first hand. The trigger is easy to adjust and holds its setting well. Extremely light trigger weights are reliable. Also, being an electronic version of the 160, which lives on somewhat in the form of the Hammerli/Walther FP60, many of the parts and such are interchangeable, such as firing pin, and it's spring, as well as sight blades, etc.
If you really wanted to, it might be possible to fit the FP60 mechanical trigger to the 162. I don't know how much that might cost, or if it's even an issue. One neat thing about the 162 is the ability to use headphones to enhance your dry firing experience. They plug right into the forend. But if you did switch to mechanical trigger, you would then be free to leave off the plastic forend and add the 160 special weight rails that clamp under the barrel. I believe you could also use the FP60 weight system.
The 150 is also very nice. The quality of construction, finish and fitting is just phenomenal. True, you can't alter the grip angle, but there are a lot of aftermarket grips that have been made which address the issue to varying degrees. They are often available quite cheap on the used market. But, the intent of the 150 grip (and 152 for that matter) was to adopt a loose grip in which the middle finger is allowed to let the weight of the pistol just hang there. It is quite different than a 1911 or 208s, but it works. I used a 152 for many years and never had an issue with it, personally.
Comparing the 150 and 162, I'll mention one or two other things. The leverage geometry of the cocking piece is better on the 160/162. It just cocks much easier. Also, the chamber on the 150/152 is very tight. You really have to press the cocking piece home with some ammo (or just choose the right ammo!).

Best Regards,
Jim

Some remarks about the similarities b etween the 160/162 and FP60: yes, the complete breech asssembly including firing pin and speing are identical.

The internal trigger mechanism with its small hammer is also identical to the one of the 160 (but obviously not to the one of the 162, it is this very piece that must be exchanged to convert a 162 to a 160).

However, the rear sight assembly is completely different on the FP60 (the FP60 offers the possibility to adjust the width with a knob while you must exhange the rear blade to do so on the 160/162).

You won't be able to mount the FP60 weight system because the carrying rod is mounted on the frame of the FP60 which is completely different than the frame of the 160.

The weight system of the 160 special can be mounted on the 160 because it is mounted on the barrel.

Yes you can convert a 160 to a 160 special but it won't be identical to an original 160 special because the frame of the 160 special is slightly different than the frame of the 160.

which allow u to better controll the total weight also help. (shameless plug, lol) regards, seaton :) ........








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I have a 150
I have shot a 162
I'm not an 150 elitist as I have a Few other FPs including the ubiquitous Toz.

Free pistols are all about feel. Understanding that, I shoot my 150 more than some, less than others
and like all free pistols, they shoot absolutely where you point them. My preference is mechanical trigger guns.
This is for no other reason than Im a Manufacturing Engineer, have a small lathe and can make whatever they may need.
Im not as comfy around circuit boards and as a matter of preference avoid them. I really like the high rake angle as it locks the forearm muscles up a bit and settles my hold a lot. I prefer the 150, but neither choice is inherently bad, just a choice
you need to explore inside yourself...... Neither gun has any real spares support, so you are mostly on your own when little things go bad.
I have the third series 150, trigger is great, there is a big cavity in the front of the grip (if you call it that) for balance weights. I love the stock grip fit. My hands are a bit large with short fingers. The trigger adjusts for position and I was good. The sights are MAGNIFICIENT. It likes to have the chamber cleaned more often than others or the cases get sticky on extraction. I could polish it a bit, but I will not mess with that as I love the way it shoots and running a brush into the chamber is no real chore. MAKE SURE somebody before you didnt depress the front sight blade release and not get it back to athe locked position. If it falls out, and it will, its a bitch to explain the cease fire to the others on the line while you get on all 4s to find it.......

So pick em both up, feel em out and get the one that fits and balances best to you. Either is a good choice but neither is rare, collectable of historically significant, so dont over pay of let a bullshit artist tell you otherwise........

I have shot Hammerli 160 and Matchguns MG5.
160 tends to be a little nose heavy even after removing the plastic housing under the barrel.
MG5 is lighter and very adjustable. It also has a very good balance.