TargetTalk

What would be rule for precision shooter steps down to shoot sporter class (with sporter gears and rifle) in a tournament. Does CMP or NRA allow shooter to do that.

In some tournament, we do not enough sporter shooter to make a team, and we would like to have a precision shooter stepping down to shoot to make a team of 4.

Please advise.

Thank you.

There are some NRA tournaments that a shooter can shoot both.

Usually in CMP matches, a shooter must decide which category he/she will shoot in and then go with the rules of that category .... i.e. a precision gun/gear can never be used in a sporter category.
(However a shooter with a sporter gun may be included as a member of a precision team ... or even shoot in the precision category)

Could one shooter shoots precision in one tournament using precision rifle/gear, and switch to sporter class in the next tournament using sport rifle and gears. What would be he rule.

I heard from a coach that once shooters move up to precision class, they cannot shoot sporter any more. :p

Is this correct?

Maxicooper wrote:I heard from a coach that once shooters move up to precision class, they cannot shoot sporter any more. :p

Is this correct?

That is incorrect.
Ask that coach to specifically show you where that is not allowed in the NGB rulebook(won't be able to do it)

There is only one tournament where that is true, and it is the National Championship match of the American Legion.
Even then, if a shooter gets invited and goes to the AL National Match in precision, that shooter may still fire in subsequent years in the qualifying rounds in sporter ... the only provisio is that the American Legion will not invite them to fire the nationals.

This is an important point, especially with shooters in the JROTC programs where they normally shoot precision, but may be asked, for the sake of the team, to fill out a sporter squad in a match.

jhmartin wrote:

Maxicooper wrote:I heard from a coach that once shooters move up to precision class, they cannot shoot sporter any more. :p

Is this correct?

That is incorrect.
Ask that coach to specifically show you where that is not allowed in the NGB rulebook(won't be able to do it)

There is only one tournament where that is true, and it is the National Championship match of the American Legion.
Even then, if a shooter gets invited and goes to the AL National Match in precision, that shooter may still fire in subsequent years in the qualifying rounds in sporter ... the only provisio is that the American Legion will not invite them to fire the nationals.

This is an important point, especially with shooters in the JROTC programs where they normally shoot precision, but may be asked, for the sake of the team, to fill out a sporter squad in a match.

Thank you for the information.

I have been serching around everywhere after I heard from the coach, and had no luck finding a conclusion of this matter.

My son will start moving up to 3P precision with CMP this season and starts to worry that he may not be able to fill in his sporter team every now and then.

They can go back to Sporter but can't earn more National 3P AR Council EIC points for Sporter. 2.4. "A competitor who earns EIC points in the Sporter Class may subsequently compete in the Precision Class and also earn points in that class. A competitor who earns points in the Precision Class cannot subsequently earn additional points in the Sporter Class."

PCU has a valid point. That may be what the coach was inferring.

You do have to look at the fact that if your son does not have all of his EIC points for Distinguished, once he earns a point in precision, he must continue earning points only in precision. He can shoot sporter in a match, but is not eligible for EIC points.

Here in NM I think it is easier to earn EIC points in sporter ... there seems to be a lot more "action" at the top of the Cup matches with the sporter guns.
There are more shooters in sporter, and thus a higher number for a percentage to gain points in the match, unless he fires a precision gun.

i.e if it a 10% match and there are 200 eligible shooters, 20 of them are eligible for EIC points.
If there are 30 eligible precision shooters, only 3 EIC points are awarded ... and none of them "Gold" points.
http://www.odcmp.com/3P/EIC_Charts.pdf

ALSO:
In either sporter or precision a shooter must have at least 10 National match or Gold points (may be combined) ... no matter how many overall points they have. Thus, as an example, if a shooter graduates High School with 36 EIC points, but only has 9 Gold/National points then they are not eligible for Distinguished status. (Happened to one of my shooters that moved to precision too early)

So there is some concern that you must think about if your shooter is shooting for distinguished status.
The best thing to do is go to the chart linked above and look at your local matches and how many shooters are in sporter and in precision and determine how many EIC points and possible "Gold" points are issued in your local matches.

THEN:
Determine what your shooter wants to do with pulling the trigger. If it is a sport for HS, then there's the incentive to stick with sporter for a while and get his Distinguished badge. If they want to shoot more International (Collegiate & Olympic) then the earlier you can get them on the precision guns, once they master the fundamentals, the better.

My youngest daughter was ready to quit shooting until I allowed her to go to precision guns (Air & Smallbore) ... she had no real interest in her Distinguished badge (she did earn it eventually) ... she wanted to shoot the p-gun and wear the outfit and maybe shoot in college.
She's taken what she's learned in 3-P air and has applied it to her 3-P smallbore, but VERY RARELY shoots any prone and kneeling in air anymore. She is focused on collegiate shooting and that's the international style ... the Junior Distinguished badge probably meant more to me (as her coach) than to her.

Good point.

My son is doing 3p smallbore and intl air rifle matches more than anything else. His goal is more toward collegiate and International shooting.

His coach at his junior club wants him to stay in sporter class. I told him that my son would like to shoot precision, and would be more than happy to fill in the sporter team if needed. He said once up to shoot precision, it is no coming back to sporter. :p

Now my son is confused. He love to move on to precision, and i got all the gears and p-rifle ready for him.

Are EIC distinguished awards really important if he want to shoot in college or intl in he future?

Maxicooper wrote:He said once up to shoot precision, it is no coming back to sporter. :p

Now my son is confused. He love to move on to precision, and i got all the gears and p-rifle ready for him.

Are EIC distinguished awards really important if he want to shoot in college or intl in he future?

My opinion & $0.02: Move him on and hold the coach to his comment, while certainly not a rule, my guess the coach is looking out for the "team".

I think that the collegiate coaches would look more favorably on attendance at the JOs (International shooting) than an EIC badge. There are a great many excellent shooters that do not have one. A great many clubs don't push it and are primarily or solely focused on the Intl game.

Remember, CMP 3-P air was primarily started as a grassroots program to get more shooters into the Intl shooting. If your son is there, move him on.

BTW how old is he/what grade in HS?

My son is turning 13 this September, an 8th grade student.

He has been shooting 3P smallbore, intl prone and intl air rifle all summer. Last year he shot mostly 3P sporter air.

He has started competitive shooting for about a year, and he is really get into the sport. He practice 3 to 4 times a week, and participated in matches at least once a month.

He has improved quite a bit recently. He has his goal set to compete in college and may be international level, that is why we plan to move up to precision as early as we can.

Max, my son is pretty close to the same situtation he has just started shooting 3p air as a HS freshman in the MCJROTC, He ended up as the top shooter for DE. the last two years and qualified for MCJROTC Service champion as a Sophmore. His needed advancment was beyond me, and I was able to get him in with some great coaches and he is now shooting for the Queen Anne county precision team. He meet one of his goals so far as to shooting a prefect round (100 in air ending up with a 574)in FT. Benning during the US Olympic trials this past June. He was able to meet Matt Emmonss and discussed the sporter game with Matt! He now has his sights on the international game/ college

Bntarrw wrote:Max, my son is pretty close to the same situtation he has just started shooting 3p air as a HS freshman in the MCJROTC, He ended up as the top shooter for DE. the last two years and qualified for MCJROTC Service champion as a Sophmore. His needed advancment was beyond me, and I was able to get him in with some great coaches and he is now shooting for the Queen Anne county precision team. He meet one of his goals so far as to shooting a prefect round (100 in air ending up with a 574)in FT. Benning during the US Olympic trials this past June. He was able to meet Matt Emmonss and discussed the sporter game with Matt! He now has his sights on the international game/ college

Really cool!!! :)

College and international is also my son's long term goal. His short team goal is to shoot some good scores at the coming up USAS MD state JO smallbore and intl air in Jan.

We still have to debate about shooting in sporter class with his junior team's coach. After talked to him last night, it looked like the coach was aiming for the team to go to national 3P air in sporter class, for a chance to win some trophy. So he wants my son to keep on shooting in sporter class, just to fill in the team.

But we want to move on. What should we do? :(

While sporter is a superb way to learn the basics of the positions, it is meant to be the low cost, entry level option for moving down the shooting path.

If kids are interested in collegiate and/or International competition they really need to move into precision .... and then to concentrate on standing in air (shoot lots of hi-volume air practices ... collegiate is 60 shot air ... both M&W).

Shooting 3-P smallbore rifle is going to most probably have to be done at the club level and not in the confines of JROTC ... 3-P air in precision is a fairly good substitute ... but collegiate coaches seem to be much happier to have a kids who's interested in their program w/ smallbore experience.

I don't feel that in air you can shoot your best (and your best may be what it takes to make the JOs) shooting both sporter and precision at the same time... there will be a compromise in both if you shoot both.

Probably 98% (probably more) of the JROTC shooters only shoot competition thru high school and then go on to shoot recreationally. A large reason for this is the cost of gear & ammo to keep shooting afterwards.
So for those, a JROTC National trophy is a big deal and something to be remembered long after high school.
I'm a 4-H club coach, so it's an easy recommendation from me .... move him on if he is looking towards collegiate & international.

I personally feel that getting the kids around the athletes (of a lot of sports) at the Olympic Training Center while they are at the JOs, Winter and Spring Airgun, Rocky Mountain Championships, etc. is a lot more valuable (life skills wise) than school sports, but that is my own opinion.

Thank you for the advise.

I think I need a long talk to the coach, and move on. :)

We are ready. My son has both precision air rifle and smallbore, coat, pants, boots and all the gears needed. He"s been practicing and has his mind set into 3P smallbore and intl air. So, I think it's about time.

Much of what has been covered here seems spot on. The Sporter class is a cost friendly way for people who would not be able to participate, to have a chance to be introduced to shooting sports and have some fun.

In the end, college coaches are going to be more impressed with participation in precision AR and 3P smallbore than sporter classes. Although smaller programs can honestly be interested in anyone with competitive shooting experience.

It does sound like your son is ready to move on, but it sounds like you may be getting ready to simply leave your current coach "high and dry". How many years has the current coach spent helping your son get to his current level? While I am not about to preach eternal allegiance to your current coach so long as it is not too far away you may in a moral way owe it to him/her and the other team members to stick with the sporter or maintain sporter eligibility though the championship, then make the complete switch.

Think about how this might reflect on things later if you need help from this coach or possibly a recommendation from this coach to apply to some other program or possibly a scholarship.

If you do have a legitimate shot at a national championship title, even it is in the sporter class it may be worth sticking it out as well as being national champion in just about anything looks good on a young persons applications.

It is not leaving him "high and dry". It is that he won't let my son to compete in precision class for some reason. And when we told him that we would be more than happy to fill in to complete a team of four in sporter if needed, he said it could not be done. He also said "once shooting precision, no turning back to sporter". He wants him to continue shooting sporter.
That is what I was asking at the beginning, that if it was ok to switch back from precision and competed in sporter class, especially in state championship.

As for how long my son has been with the club, he has joined the club last July. He started from scratch. Coach helped him on the basic, shooting off bench, etc., until Nov that I then took NRA coach level 1 class. I start working with him ever since.

Also, it is about the shooter as well.. If my son doesn't keep saying that he wants to move up with a confidence that he will do good, I wouldn't push this hard.

Certified coaches are supposed to be following the "athletes first, winning second" mantra from the ASEP course.

Here is a link for the rule book: http://www.odcmp.com/PUB/3PRules/Index.html#/2/

Download it and read it. There is no rule stopping someone fro shooting sporter after shooting Precision. One of mine shot Precision in the #P National Championships in Atlanta, only to be bounced off the team by his little sister the next year. He then lead our sporter team at the national championships in North Carolina the next year.

Ask the coach to show you the rule about not shooting both, and again make the offer to shoot on the sporter team for the state match. If he declines, it might be time to be looking for another coach who is more interrested in your son's advancement.

“But we want to move on. What should we do?”

Your problem is the opposite of what we have at our club. We don’t have a strong sporter program and push our juniors into precision very quickly. Time and time again I see frustration for the kids the first years because of all the equipment adjustment that distract them from mastering the fundamentals of good marksmanship. We get away with it because we have enough advanced shooter and coaches to help them overcome the distraction.

So from what I read in this thread my advice would be to focus on shooting with the good sporter team for one more year but go ahead and practice some precision shooting and shoot the JOs as an individual just for the experience keeping in mind that he will get another shot at qualifying as an IJ (intermediate junior) again next year. This would also give you time to find a good coach and team to get involved with. I would be very reluctant to go out on your own without an experienced coach it could cause some serious setbacks for both of you.

I hope this is helpful for you. Good luck and remember this should be fun.

It sounds like it is definitely time for a sit down chat WITH the printed rules right on the table.

First, let me give you credit for getting out and taking a coaching course to develop a better understanding of this sport.

There are two possibilities here, the coach has some hidden agenda and is being disrespectful to your sons goals as a result. A bit harsh and honestly not too likely.

I would bet the coach does not really have a full understanding of the rules, him or herself. Few people appreciate that for small clubs the "coach" is often the Maitre' D, Waiter, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer and they get stretched a little thin. Add to this that a good handful do have other employment and family commitments going as well so sometimes they might read or hear of a rule and get things half straight. I have seen plenty of cases where a well meaning coach thinks that a rules says something it does not. This is why I emphasize both parties looking at the pertinent rules in writing. Both parties can likely learn.

If after sitting down and READING the rules together there is still no meeting of the minds, then it may be best for both to part company. However, what caveman said regarding going it as an independent is correct, that can be tough.

I am a little late on this thread, but I would like to let you know that my daughter last year did just what you described. She is now going into 8th grade and for the three previous years she was a member of a fairly good sporter team who had already won national championship medals. At the start of last year she transitioned to precision with a goal of qualifying for the JO's in Colorado. It wasn't long that she realized that she was letting down her sporter team. So, she decided that she wanted to compete in both. We talked to her coach and together decided that in position matches she would shoot sporter, for standing matches, she would shoot precision. This way she wouldn't have to also practice prone and kneeling in precision. In order for this to work, it would require more practice on her part though. She practiced sporter twice a week with her team, practiced precision standing at home and competed in an open air rifle standing league once a week. On top of this she was on a volleyball team, she was busy!! In the end it worked, she qualified for the JO's in Colorado and the sporter team won another medal in Anniston.

This isn't an ideal situation, but it worked for her. I do think she would have done better in either one if she focused on only the one event but she had a strong sporter background and she was a strong standing shooter already. By doing both, she was able to gain more experience in national level competitions which I believe is a big plus.

So, in short it may not be ideal but can be done and good experience for your son can be gained. Good luck!