TargetTalk

Hi Everyone,

www.sport-shooting.com

I have not downloaded this new app yet, but it looks like it could be worthy to our sport. I downloaded a different one some time ago and it really didn't work too well. This one looks like a much better one.

Has anyone here tried out this new tuner tube?

Thanks,

tenring

Hi,
If you have any questions regarding the Starik Tube or the app.don't hesitate to ask me.
Guy Starik.

Hi,

This question is based on the assumption that the shooter only shoots ISSF prone.
I presume any of the top shooters will batch test ammunition, which I will again presume gives them very good results, so what advantage would adding a tuner into the equation give?
Rgds,
D.

A tuner job is to compensate in variations of velocity in the batch you shoot with. When you find the "sweet spot",the rifle will be more accurate and have less vertical in any ammo you will shoot.it will you even more with cheaper ammo where the variations in velocity are bigger.you will have less vertical dispertion in any ammo for the same distance. When you tune a rifle, it's tuned only for the distance you tuned it for.
Guy.

I have an Upta tuner on my rifle. I batch tested my ammo, so I got a lot that was shooting preatty well, and when I tuned it, it shrank the groups even more.

They work, they are not magic, and you don't need one to win. But every little bit helps.
Matt

Some barrels will shoot great without a bloop tube and a tuner,but almost any barrel will shoot better with bloop tube and even better with a tuner.
Longer and lighter barrels are easier to tune. Last month I have been in Scotland,visited my friend Jeoffrey Kolbe,the owner of Border barrels.
We have seen using his positive compensation device that in many cases you need only a small weight in order to get a full positive compensation. Some times,the weight of the tuner is not needed,and the bloop tube weight is exactly the weight you need in order to have a full positive compensation.
The Starik tube comes with aluminum or steel weights,so you can select the weight on the bloop tube,or you can take the whole tuner off,using only the bloop tube as a tuner.
Guy.

Keeping a few things in mind with regard to the general use of tuner tubes:

A few of these points have been implied in this thread but it might be better to lay them out explicitly. I have encountered the idea that a tuner tube will somehow fix a worn out barrel, bad ammo or turn an intermediate shooter into a world class gold medalist, none of these is the case. When the designers of these devices use the word "tuner" it is exactly that, something to REFINE the existing system.

Before any tube will help you have to start with a barrel in good shape and the crown, not beat up. Next, the bedding whether you are shooting "off the wood", have a glass/pillar bedded stock or an aluminum stock with the interface material between the action and the stock this aspect of the rifle must be in good condition. While some rifles are more sensitive to the torque settings of the action screws than other most rifles do have a sweet spot for bedding torque where they are the most accurate.

Next, you have to put decent ammo through the barrel. Yes, I have encountered people putting bulk ammo costing less than $0.05USD per round through a target rifle worth a few $1000s USD and can't understand why it does not shoot very well. There are several good practice ammo's out there (Eley Club, SK, Wolf (SK and Wolf are the same thing) are some examples ) that that cost in the range of $0.13USD per round that are very suitable for practice and basic tuning. If you are interested in a higher grade ammo for matches you will want to tune for the match ammo but ideal torque setting will usually not vary much from ammo to ammo or lot to lot once the ideal bedding torque setting is found.

NOW... once you have a good barrel, you have found the ideal torque setting range for the action screws and matched a lot of ammo to the barrel, put the tuner tube on and start tuning. This general sequence is a methodical way to get the best performance out of your rifle ammo combination.

I do go back to the point I was making at the beginning, a tuner tube, while it a a great device and properly used will improve the performance/accuracy of the rifle CANNOT fix a bad barrel, cheap ammo OR a poor performance by the shooter.

So that is my two cents on the topic, you may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Cheers
'Dude

Hi Dude,
I don't agry with everything you wrote,but to some of it.
I don't have bedding in my rifle which shoots really well,not even Sergey Martinov which is the best prone shooter ever.Martinov has 3 different Anschutz barrels,which he changes from time to time using the same wooden stock without bedding.most of the top prone shooters in Europe don't have bedding in their rifles. I have tried many torque settings on my screws,without seeing much difference.5,6 or 7NM gave me about the same results.a good barrel is a must for achieving high results,and I agree it's the most important thing! Bloop tubes and tuners have a lot of effect on the vertical grouping of a rifle,in my opinion much more than bedding or torque setting. My 2 cents,
Guy.

Hello Guy

Thank you for the in insight on the practices of some of the European top shooters. I did try to qualify my post to say regardless of which bedding system you have it has to be working for you. Looking back I did not make that very clear. I did not mean to imply that a person needed to have specialized bedding before looking into the benefits of a tuning system. Only that their bedding needed to be working properly.

My rifles are all Anschutz Match 54 based. Some shoot excellent with the plain wooden bedding and don't care about torque while I have one that is so sensitive to any change it is pretty much useless as a target rifle.

I do point out Sergei Martynov to people here in the US as a shooter using a pretty plain looking Anschutz, no tube of any kind and an old cloth sling winning gold after gold.

Much of my post was aimed at the US market where ISSF shooting exists only in small pockets and especially the newer shooters are sometimes under the belief that it is equipment not talent that generates world class scores.

As a final note here, directed at to the US readers Guy noted 5, 6 and 7 N-m of torque. For those with in-lbf torque wrenches there are 8.85 in-lbf to 1 N-m of torque.

Cheers,
'Dude

Hi Guy, again - thanks for sharing your experiences.

Do you have a method for determining when your rifle is in tune?
I know the US benchresters have their preferred ways of doing it but it all seems a bit too trial and error...
I've enjoyed Geoff Kolbe's article on positive compensation and have hope that one day soon our rifles might be measured and optimized.

Do you find that the tune varies with different batches of ammunition?

I have many more questions but that will do for now.

Regards from the UK,

Ken.

Also in regards to 6,7,8 Nm of torque. I believe Guy uses an aluminum stock. Know that torque settings above 5Nm with naked wood could cause damage.

tenring

Hi Kenny,
I tune my rifle shooting from the shoulder,using high velocity (1080 fps) and low velocity(1045fps) Eley Match or Tenex ammo.
I move the weight until both batches hit the target at the same height.
At that sweet spot the groups will be the smallest with the same vertical and horizontal dispersion. You can also do it from a test bench,but it must be a rig which recoils up,like shooting from the shoulder. If the rig is stiff,or recoils only backwards,you can't tune for positive compensation.
I am using the Uli Lind rig which works very well for me.
I have been in Scotland testing with Jeff Kolbe in his tuning device.
The device is awesome,and I believe it's the future concerning tuning rifles.
If you have any more questions,I will be happy to answer.
You can do it at sport-shooting.com
Guy.

For Guy, how easy would it be to add other targets to your Ipod app? I shoot Canadian Sporting Rifle and use a slightly different type of target with bigger rings. If that could be done I would buy your app for sure.

Cheers,

It's not possible to add targets to the app.
You can use other targets,of issf and analyze your shooting with it.
The size of target doesn't really Metter if you want to see the shape of groups,time,and all the other benefits you can get from the app.
Guy.

I have the app and find it quite useful as a method of recording my range training sessions and monitoring progress as it has a simple way of emailing you your session details, if you want.

Basically, if you have kept or keep a diary that records all of your basic info for training and comps, the app seems to do the job well enough.

As for Target options, I like the idea of being able to record the shots on a target that is a representation of the target I am actually using. For me, it is the 10m Air Pistol Target which is fine, so the shot data / scoring that I record is representative of my actual discipline needs.

After you have worked out how to get around the different options / user interface, it doesn't present to much of a problem to use / enter data during practice and whilst I haven't used it during a match, if your inclined to record data whilst competing, it has the potential to eat into a bit of your match time, so I wouldn't recommend jumping in the deep end and using it at your first comp for the season and I'd suggest building it into your training routine first..

As for actually recording the shots, shot by shot, it is a pretty simple process, but I found when I first used it, if I needed to record a shot that was on the border of the user input screen, which for the 10m Air Pistol Target is the 8 ring, the target would automatically enlarge to full view, which is what it appears to be designed to do, but makes it a little trickier to accurately, and quickly enter the shot position, which is not a great problem as it is easy enough to hit the little trash icon to delete the recorded shot and re-enter it.

However, with a bit of practice, I imagine I will be able to enter the shot data more accurately and much quicker than the 5 - 7 seconds that it is currently taking me for each shot. This 5 - 7 seconds doesn't include individual comments associated to the good or poor shots, like shot 23, called correctly, held too long, work on sight picture and trigger release or shot 40, called correctly, perfect sight picture and trigger release. So if your inclined to really detail your shots in practice, it will take a few seconds more as you jump to the comments page!

I'll show a few guys at the club tonight, try it out some more during practice and maybe use it for the first card for the night and will post a bit of an update over the weekend.

Hi Darrel,
Thanks for feedback.
It's useful for us.
Guy.

Guy, any chance your app will become available on Android? 50% of phones and tablets in use run on Android. Would be great!

I hope we can do it in the future.
Guy.

tenring wrote:Hi Everyone,

www.sport-shooting.com

I have not downloaded this new app yet, but it looks like it could be worthy to our sport. I downloaded a different one some time ago and it really didn't work too well. This one looks like a much better one.

Thanks,

tenring

Hi, I finally got around to finishing a review on the Target Tracker App.

It is a totally personal review, as I have no link with the App, other than as a user.

I ended up posting it as a new thread in Olympic Pistol as ISSF Air Pistol is where my main interest in the sport is.

viewtopic.php?p=164403#164403

Hope you find it useful.

Cheers,
Darrell

Hi guys

Just found this old thread re the bloop. I would be interested to know from Guy [or others] if the new carbon version has any advantage over the old[er] version.Im assuming the only thing is the weight? They are an expensive mod but a well worth one perhaps if results are evident.

Thanks Andrew