TargetTalk

In another thread someone mentioned getting an EFP for an air rifle, but it was going rather off topic already...

I thought I'd make another thread here rather than emailing in case the information's useful to other people.

So...how do I go about doing this? At the same time as applying for an FAC? (If so, I have already messed up as her application has gone in for the .22 FAC only).

How does it work with a gun which isn't (and can't) be on an FAC?

How does it work when it is a junior who cannot legally own the gun in question, or carry it in the UK? Can she still have an EFP with it on?

Any advice very welcome as to how best to approach the paperwork required - I suspect I may have to explain it to our local firearms officer who is not himself a shooter.

Thanks!

As far as I have been told by my FEO, you cannot obtain an EFP for a rifle which cannot be placed on an FAC. No FAC, no EFP.

However, european countries often dont require an EFP for rifles below 6ft-lb, so this may not affect you. In my discipline, FT, we use sub 12ft-lb rifles but they are over 6... they cannot be placed onto the UK FAC system because they don't require a license, but many european countries demand an EFP because they are over 6. Catch 22. So it takes great effort for countries hosting 6-12ft-lb events to get special local permits for visiting UK shooters (excluding NI who can get an EFP because all air rifles are on FAC there.)

How does it work with a gun which isn't (and can't) be on an FAC?

The answer to that one is diplomatically! (literally) I have recently been involved with this and after working through the NSRA (most important) we received the following from the embassy of the country concerned:

Following up our correspondence I have again contacted Bundespolizeidirektion Schwechat in Austria, the authority at the point of entry for your arrival by plane.

Since the UK cannot issue a Firearm pass for the air rifle, I have been informed that Mr XXXXXX can enter Austria with his air rifle, provided he travels with the rifle securely packed away in his suitcase and keeps rifle and ammunition separate at all times during his stay in Austria.

I hope, this finally clarifies the matter. If you need further confirmation, please contact

Dr. Heinz Resch

Bundespolizeidirektion Schwechat

Wiener Str. 13

A-2320 Schwechat

Rutty

Thanks guys!

So a standard precision target air rifle (it's an FWB P70 junior) wouldn't be over 6 ft-lb anyway so isn't an issue? That makes my life easier.

So a standard precision target air rifle (it's an FWB P70 junior) wouldn't be over 6 ft-lb anyway so isn't an issue? That makes my life easier.

Not always the case, for example Austria requires an EFP for <6ft/lbs airguns. You have to check the national requirements, regrettably European Regulation does not equate to standardisation.

|Rutty

You do not need to have an EFP even if the host country requires airguns to be on them for nationals. We often travel to Holland which restricts airguns but we need nothing other than invitations for the event. The EU laws stipulate that your own national laws dictate what you need elsewhere in the EU. So simply put you don't need one and the police will not give you one anyway.

Rob.

You do not need to have an EFP even if the host country requires airguns to be on them for nationals. We often travel to Holland which restricts airguns but we need nothing other than invitations for the event. The EU laws stipulate that your own national laws dictate what you need elsewhere in the EU. So simply put you don't need one and the police will not give you one anyway.

That may well be the case when you are only traveling to the country where the event is being held. The "Austrian Problem" arose because the shooter was transiting en-route to an event in Slovakia, let alone explaining that a blind man was going to a shooting match!

Rutty

Rutty wrote:

You do not need to have an EFP even if the host country requires airguns to be on them for nationals. We often travel to Holland which restricts airguns but we need nothing other than invitations for the event. The EU laws stipulate that your own national laws dictate what you need elsewhere in the EU. So simply put you don't need one and the police will not give you one anyway.

That may well be the case when you are only traveling to the country where the event is being held. The "Austrian Problem" arose because the shooter was transiting en-route to an event in Slovakia, let alone explaining that a blind man was going to a shooting match!

Rutty

No doubt some countries do have their own quirks, especially those recent additions to the EU. I've driven from the UK to Holland a few times and into Germany, just the once, through France and Belgium. I guess though those countries are easier because they have no border controls.

As always it pays to find out as much as you can about where you're travelling to and their rules but the same overarching EU rules still apply. And a 'normal / non-section 1' airgun will not get onto a EFP (unless your force does something exceptional).

Rob.

Skylark
Rob is right there is no EFP for air even if you ask them to add them. The EFP is applied for after you have your FAC and have your guns entered and is a EU copy of what is on the FAC with the exeption of ammo which is not covered. Its free, there is no application form just ask your local Firearms dept by letter with the details of the guns you want on it and send it in with a set of photo's and we got ours in three weeks which we thought was good as any other FAC issue, applications, renewals, variations are taking over 3 months! And its a proper certificate not the scanned rubbish that is the modern FAC.
We travel through Europe, Holland, Belgium, France, Germany, Austria, and most normal EU countries have no interest in air guns as long as they are F in a pentagon marked as non FAC which all target guns are. At ports they will be declared through your carrier, ship or plane so declare them. At road borders we say nothing unless asked for passports and any goods which is almost unheard of now in Europe, just drive through at 50 Kph. If you do stop and declare they are not interested even with a firearm if its on EFP. Always have a copy of the invite to the match and that serves to satisfy these countries.
I have no knowledge of the "new EU" Latvia, etc but suspect they may be a bit beaurocratic jobsworthy, but I'm going on how they were in the iron curtain days, so best to get guidance for those.
The hassle comes from the travel method, air is fairly organised with a standard routine of declaration and security, but ships have different rules company to company so best to contact them.
Great fun, and good to see how clubs operate in other countries, we are off to Holland next week for a match against a Dutch club and an Austrian club.
Good shooting
Robin

RobinC wrote: We travel through Europe, Holland, Belgium, France, Germany, Austria, and most normal EU countries have no interest in air guns as long as they are F in a pentagon marked as non FAC which all target guns are.

Sorry Robin, but they are not all marked F.

Only those deemed to me manufactured for 10m, ie sub 6ft-lb are F stamped. Those between 6-12, such as FT/HFT and most rifles sold in the UK aren't.

The problem is that although you may not be checked, some countries demand an EFP, and not having one (despite what the EFP law says) will see you in a mess. You won't get into Italy or Hungary or Spain without one, and you may not get out either. (this is from 1st hand experience). However, some host countries can make local arrangements for an temp license.

The catch 22 is that an EFP will not be granted for air rifles not requiring an EFP in GB (NI excepted). So you can't get an EFP, and you also have no license to show either, and the futher complication is you have nothing to prove your rifle is even sub 12 or not because there is no GB legal document for such.

Luckily the europeans we have visited have managed to arrange local permits for us to visit their events. You may have a lot less problems with F stamped gear sub 6 ft-lb, but for those that run a shade under 12, it's a royal PIA.

Rob
It is a problem when they are not F marked. You could always get an FAC for them! I'm sure you'd love to do that!

The EFP does smooth the way though, I'm surprised the local Firearms dept if you have an EFP would not add non FAC guns such as air on as they may be restricted in some EU countries, but I know they won't, that would be too simple.

Give it time, some jobsworth will have them all on ticket eventually any way!
Good shooting
Robin

RobinC wrote:Rob
It is a problem when they are not F marked. You could always get an FAC for them! I'm sure you'd love to do that!

The EFP does smooth the way though, I'm surprised the local Firearms dept if you have an EFP would not add non FAC guns such as air on as they may be restricted in some EU countries, but I know they won't, that would be too simple.

Give it time, some jobsworth will have them all on ticket eventually any way!
Good shooting
Robin

That's the prob... we cant get the sub 12 non F's on ticket... and you're right, if they're not on ticket we can't get and EFP.

I've tied my FEO in knots with discussions about when is an airgun a firearm that doesn't require a license and when is it not ;) Unfortunately they really don't know what they're doing and the law is a complete mess...

Rob
Surely if you applied for an FAC for an over 12 ft air lbs rifle (if you don't mind the hassle!) then put the under one on the ticket, I'm sure there would be no lower limit on power of an FAC rifle? Then you could get an EFP.
Lot of hassle and over beaucratic but surely possible.
Robin

RobinC wrote:Rob
Surely if you applied for an FAC for an over 12 ft air lbs rifle (if you don't mind the hassle!) then put the under one on the ticket, I'm sure there would be no lower limit on power of an FAC rifle? Then you could get an EFP.
Lot of hassle and over beaucratic but surely possible.
Robin

Ha, well... yes and no.

Playing it by the book, my FEO will insist that an air rifle under 12 has to be taken off again.

That isn't a problem per se, because you can vary the power of an airgun by just changing the pellet, something airgunners in the UK are acutely aware of and constantly have to check to remain legal.

But, it being a S1 FAC then brings problems as to where i can shoot it, and FT clubs are mostly on normal land, not cleared ranges, so it would need an open ticket/cleared land, and the club's insurance to cover S1. That's the riddle of when is a firearm not a firearm and when is an airgun an airgun?